So I am a part of the LGBTQ community and work in a big city in middle europe. A lot of my coworkers are religios and have a foreign background. They are mostly very nationalist and homo-/transphobic. I hate them for their blind hate and bigotry, which wont change. I have realised, that I have become a bit bigotred towards people like them in the last few months, which is, even tho my biases often revealed to be true, just unfair to them. How could I stop that?

  • Admiral Patrick
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    6210 months ago

    It sounds like you’re describing the Paradox of Tolerance.

    The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually ceased or destroyed by the intolerant. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly self-contradictory idea that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance.

    I don’t really have a good answer other than follow your heart, I guess.

      • @[email protected]
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        2310 months ago

        In philosophy, “paradox” often doesn’t mean that something really is self-contradictory, but rather that it seems self-contradictory. There are what Quine called “veridical paradoxes” which seem at first to be contradictions but actually turn out to be true but non-obvious. That’s the case for a lot of “paradoxes” arising from math, for example the birthday paradox.

        (In any event, “deserve” is much more complicated than “paradox”!)

      • @[email protected]
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        710 months ago

        It is a paradox because there’s no objective, universal definition of tolerance. It’s literally impossible to be tolerant of everything. So you’re left with different forms of what intolerance people deem acceptable.

        People make the same mistake about bigotry. It’s impossible not to be a bigot. You just don’t want to be the wrong kind of bigot. Now if only we could all agree on exactly what that was.

      • @[email protected]
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        210 months ago

        The “paradox” here is that by being tolerant of intolerance, we are actually decreasing the overall level of tolerance when normally we’d expect tolerant behaviors to increase tolerance.

        Compare it to the “death wave.” When someone stops in a multi lane intersection to allow someone to cross in debt of them, the pedestrian/vehicle can’t see around the stopped vehicle and this can result in them being hit by a motorist in the adjacent lane. It feels like you’re being safe and considerate, but you’re actually putting the other person in more danger than if you had simply followed the right of way. It happens often enough that a name has been coined for the phenomenon.

        Tolerating hate increases hate, not tolerance. Tolerating hate in the extreme decreases tolerance not only relative to the hate, but because once hate takes over they eliminate tolerance (see Florida).

    • @[email protected]
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      1710 months ago

      OP is describing their own growing bias towards an ethnic group based on opinions they have encountered in a few of them. They want help with their own biases. This isn’t really the kind of answer this post needs. It’s becoming cliche.

      • hypelightfly
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        -110 months ago

        I may have read it incorrectly but I didn’t see anything about an ethnic group in OPs post. The only distinguishing factor they provided was “blind hate and bigotry”. Which is not an ethnic group.

        • @[email protected]
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          810 months ago

          a lot of my coworkers are religious and have a foreign background

          I think this where the bias settles in that he wants to remove.

          • hypelightfly
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            310 months ago

            Ok, yeah I can see that reading it again. Probably my own biases causes me to ignore that part initially. Thanks for pointing it out.

    • @[email protected]OP
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      610 months ago

      I don’t think so, as I stated earlier I hate my nationalist coworkers, but my problem is, that I have the same feelings for people like them that I don’t know.

  • @[email protected]
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    2110 months ago

    Talk to them. Most people have some redeeming qualities. It might also help them understand you and become less bigoted, although that won’t happen overnight (google Daryl Davis for some interesting info/Ted Talks)

  • Hot Saucerman
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    10 months ago

    Look, one thing you need to take away is there’s a good chance not all of them actually feel that religion in their bones.

    A lot of them are still “religious” because they’re afraid of being judged by their peers, which in some of those cultures can go way beyond just shaming.

    I had a friend who was an exchange student when I was in college. He was originally from Jordan and had struggled with his religion for a long time, and in his time in the US, felt like he was becoming atheist. He went home to Jordan to basically hide that fact from everyone he knows for the rest of his life because apostasy is illegal in Jordan. He could be stripped of his civil rights, his ability to get a job and lose all legal relationships with his family.

    The issue of course is an authoritarian religious environment which punishes deviation from strict belief.

    In my opinion, you do not have to like people who are using their belief to shun others. Their blind hatred and bigotry make them unworkable people to have relationships with. Does this mean every person from their country is like this? No. Does this mean every person even in that group you’re talking about is like this, deep down? No, some of them may be way more open but are worried about attacks from within their own community.

    My suggestion would be to do your best to be considerate and polite in a work context, but not have any relationship with them outside of work, and focus on the idea that not everyone from such a culture ends up so hateful and practicing jingoistic nationalism. My friend from Jordan is a bright, shining example of a kind, loving human who grew up in a culture that taught him to not be.

    Blame the nationalism, blame the religion, blame the strict governance that forces these beliefs on people. The individuals are being taken advantage of by their religion and nation, even if they’re not aware of it. It is their fault for not becoming better people, and you don’t have to be friends with them or polite to them outside of work.

    Anyway, personal opinion, forced beliefs aren’t 100% on them, and we should be considering that some people have learned to be very, very good at hiding their real selves in this kind of environment.

    You might someday find out that one person in that group really wants to escape it and become more open and less discriminatory and bigoted.

    As for yourself, I don’t think it’s bigotry to recognize hate and bigotry for what they are. I do think you need to be able to stop and consider that not everyone from such a community is like the people you have experienced, although a vast majority of them may be like that.

    Anyway, put the blame where it lies, on a religion and government that twists people in knots by leveling severe punishments for not being the “right” religion.

  • @Fizz
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    710 months ago

    In my opinion it’s fine to hate them for their beliefs. But you need to remember that everyone that looks like them isn’t them. Each human is a complex person and it’s unfair to hate a person without knowing them.

    What might help is trying to find someone of that race who is lgbt and speaking to them. That might help stop your brain from jumping to the conclusion of their all bigots.

  • @[email protected]
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    10 months ago

    Is your concern how you treat those specific individuals who have demonstrated their beliefs? Or is it about pre judging future people who you will meet? The answer will look different.

    If it’s about those particular dudes… consider learning more about them and showing them more about you. It may be powerful. If that puts you at risk then don’t do it. You are under no obligation. They already showed you who they are.

    If it’s about others… have you already find yourself demonstrating prejudice? Had it happened yet, or is it just a fear? Biases are natural. Everyone has them. Recognizing them is the greatest defense. Huge. Stereotyping is a protective mechanism to help us figure out what is safe or important. It is a shortcut. It cuts down mental processing time by seeing not just a new individual sensation but also a thing that is part of a group that already is in a mental network with a web of associations. You learn more on an instant than you would by investigating every new thing. Even if it’s not perfectly accurate, it’s good enough for spotting tigers and strawberries.

    Biases are shortcuts. But not everything deserves a shortcut. Getting to know another person sometimes means taking the long road.

    Don’t feel ashamed that your mind wants to take shortcuts. It might help you feel safe. In a fraction of a second your brain might think, “He looks a lot like that guy that said he would hurt people like me.” But part of being human is being able to rise above that. Stop and think: is that the same guy? No. Let’s give him a chance and see what he’s about.

    Or don’t. Stay safe. The risks of human relationships can be rewarding, but they are still risks.

  • @[email protected]
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    510 months ago

    IMHO the most important thing is to have a moral foundation so you understand yourself why you believe racism/bigotry to be a bad thing.

    It’s hard to say one is being good when intentionally and needlessly harming another right? And racism and bigotry intentionally and needlessly harms those being discriminated against.

    So you get to decide if you want to be a decent person or one of the ugly hateful people. And of course whichever one decides, they will reap the consequences, whether that’s a bunch of cool friends or something else.

    My recommendation to you, start viewing your coworkers as the ugly people they are and make it clear you don’t hang around low-lifes without directly stating anything in reference to them.

  • roguetrick
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    10 months ago

    Attribution biases, confirmation biases, and xenophobia are human conditions. Some are greater affected by personality than others (which you can’t change as an adult). All you can do is acknowledge that you do it and work to reduce it. Anyone who says they’re immune is delusional.

  • @[email protected]
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    410 months ago

    It’s not unfair if they are bigoted.

    Try to ignore everyone’s background before judging them. Wait until they reveal their true opinions then feel free to judge.

    I know it seems like all the people from certain cultures have similar opinions, and it’s true on average. But don’t miss good people in there. Let it that be your motivation - finding good people in a sea of assholes.

    • @[email protected]
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      10 months ago

      What do you mean by ignoring background? At first that sounds like “I don’t see color” but surely you dont mean it like that. What did you have in mind?

      • @[email protected]
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        -110 months ago

        I absolutely mean it like that.
        It doesn’t preclude acknowledging that other people do see color.

        Compare statements:

        • Person is seen as (color) by racists
        • Person is (color)
        • @[email protected]
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          10 months ago

          Ignoring or dismissing someone’s background, culture, identity, and experiences is a terrible way to get to know them. That’s like trying to understand the Odyssey without knowing about the Iliad

          • @[email protected]
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            010 months ago

            Ignoring or dismissing Assuming based on stereotypes someone’s background, culture, identity, and experiences is a terrible way to get to know them.

            • @[email protected]
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              110 months ago

              I’m not saying to assume. But that doesn’t mean ignore. You acknowledge, listen, and learn. It’s part of the whole story.

  • @[email protected]
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    410 months ago

    I know this is a complex topic and you have a lot of solid replies already. All I can add is, mushrooms may help you shift and broaden your perspective if you haven’t tried them already.

  • ISometimesAdmin
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    410 months ago

    As someone of color (Indian) who is often mistaken as being foreign/religious until they hear my accent…

    I feel the other commenters here are missing the mark. This isn’t about fixing them, or learning to “accept them as they are”: bigots should never be tolerated.

    Which is to say, your reasons for being “bigoted” towards the bigots isn’t a matter of prejudice: you’ve extrapolated a pattern.

    But you don’t want to apply this pattern unfairly to people you haven’t met, because that’d make you bigoted as well.

    Well, I have good news for you: you aren’t at any risk for that. Real bigots don’t think they’re bigots. People with prejudices don’t consider their judgement unsound. They think they’re the most unbiased, reasonable people in the world, and often try to push their opinions on others with violence, whether it’s verbal, social, or physical.

    By simply acknowledging internally that you have thoughts that you consider unideal, and unfair, you’ve done a thousand times more self-reflecting, and have more capacity for self-correcting, than someone like my parents would.

    Don’t try to beat the bad thoughts out of yourself. Acknowledge them, and pledge to act better than they’d have you.

  • @[email protected]
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    310 months ago

    This kind of hate is always the product of fear and sometimes that fear is so deep that’s impossible to eradicate all by yourself.
    The most significant thing that you can try is to let them know that there is nothing to be afraid about, but it is only going to work with people who are open to receive that information, which aren’t many. My suggestion is start to focus on these people.
    It will take time, but if you manage to get a “critical mass” of individuals to listen to you, then real change can and will happen on a larger scale.

  • @[email protected]
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    10 months ago

    I know the common theme is to blame ignorance and while in many cases that’s true, but we often overlook other causes. Imo, it’s sometimes due to ressentiment, “sense of hostility directed toward an object that one identifies as the cause of one’s frustration, that is, an assignment of blame for one’s frustration. The sense of weakness or inferiority complex and perhaps even jealousy in the face of the “cause” generates a rejecting/justifying value system, or morality, which attacks or denies the perceived source of one’s frustration. This value system is then used as a means of justifying one’s own weaknesses by identifying the source of envy as objectively inferior, serving as a defense mechanism that prevents the resentful individual from addressing and overcoming their insecurities and flaws. The ego creates an enemy to insulate themselves from culpability.” A lyric from one of my favorite songs, “Lunatic Fringe”, sums it up nicely. 'Cause you got to blame someone for your own confusion.

  • @[email protected]
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    210 months ago

    Bravo to you for seeing people as people. Obviously none of your coworkers made a conscious choice to be intolerant, it’s just an emergent phenomenon given their experience with the people around them, an effect you’re noticing happen in yourself.

    I don’t know how to achieve it, but I think there is only one way to combat intolerance, and that is to move people from an outgroup to an ingroup. People tend to not care about people in their outgroup, but tend to be intolerant of people they fear in their outgroup. People who have their family, their church, and their compatriots in their ingroups are referred to as nationalists, and when nationalists are convinced to fear their outgroup, you get fascism.

    They are intolerant of the LGBTQ community because they have (unfounded) fears that there is an “agenda” to erode their religions and force people to be like them. You are intolerant of them because you have (often well founded) fears that their actions fuel systemic intolerance that has a very real impact on your livelihood.

    I think the only way to flip this on its head is to break this pattern, for each of you to view each other as part of your ingroups. Now, it would be fair to say that’s too hard, that would be unreasonably difficult to become that close to them, and you’d probably be right. I think that’s why many in this thread have instead settled for seeing them as less than human, not worth “saving”. But that’s what I think would need to happen.

    • @[email protected]
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      10 months ago

      Obviously none of your coworkers made a conscious choice to be intolerant

      That’s a huge, and demonstrably incorrect, assumption. I have a friend that treats everyone like that, they’re super outgoing, throw huge parties, and invite every type of person you can imagine, and they all show up because they’re excellent parties. The bigoted racists gather in their own group (they easily find each other by their stupid shirts) make off color jokes, loudly, except the really bad ones, which they quietly say to each other and snicker like teenagers. I tend to blend in to the background and overhear a lot of what they say to each other. They chose to hate, they view certain humans as lesser beings, and repeatedly act in ways to explicitly prove they’re not part of any group outside their own, on purpose. They want, and deserve to be excluded until they’re willing to change.

      Spoiler

      They won’t, even if they say they will. Believing them will make your life miserable, and then they’ll beg you to let them do it again.