As part of his Labor Day message to workers in the United States, Sen. Bernie Sanders on Monday re-upped his call for the establishment of a 20% cut to the workweek with no loss in pay—an idea he said is “not radical” given the enormous productivity gains over recent decades that have resulted in massive profits for corporations but scraps for employees and the working class.
“It’s time for a 32-hour workweek with no loss in pay,” Sanders wrote in a Guardian op-ed as he cited a 480% increase in worker productivity since the 40-hour workweek was first established in 1940.
“It’s time,” he continued, “that working families were able to take advantage of the increased productivity that new technologies provide so that they can enjoy more leisure time, family time, educational and cultural opportunities—and less stress.”
Why does it feel like it’s only ever Bernie Sanders that is pushing for life improvements.
Cause he’s one of the few that actually give a shit. Its why the DNC did everything in their power to scuttle his primary run. Can’t have a president that actually wants to help the common American cause then the corporate overlords might lose their stranglehold on them.
If we got rid of the Republican party, he might be able to run as an independent.
TL;DR: Corruption and capitalism
Any kind of socialism (even relatively-speaking weak social democrats like Bernie) is severely underrepresented in US politics due to the influence of private money/capital in the government and in elections. The two party system/first past the post voting doesn’t help matters either.
The people with money actively want to supress socialism by any means necessary. Look at Joe McCarthy and the Red Scare if you want an example in US history that still affects us today.
Also Reagan with deregulation and Bill Clinton with “triangulation” (effectively becoming more economically right wing by finding the middle ground between right and left, while the right is constantly pushing right. See: the Ratchet Effect)
Bernie is one of the extremely few principled politicians who doesn’t take corporate money, but he also lacks power as he is one person.
Any kind of socialism (even relatively-speaking weak social democrats like Bernie)
This move is not socialism and calling it socialism makes it harder to pass in America.
If you’re in a gun fight, don’t start tossing your opponent ammunition.
Thank you
We’ve already proven that idiots don’t understand the words they parrot, so attaching it to one they hate is just stupid.
Same thing with shit like vaccines and autism. Don’t even put the two in the same sentence. It’s not even worth legitimizing the bullshit the handlers put out there
At some point you have to play the game, and everyone to the left of Trump sucks ass at meaningfully doing so with the notable exceptions of Obama almost 20 years ago.
If Dems don’t fix their messaging we aren’t going to win any of this shit.
Seriously. There’s a serious messaging problem when the Nazis/white power groups push for social equity programs (for whites only, of course) and get more traction with poor whites than the Dems who give lip-service to equity for all while doing jack shit to deliver. EDIT: My friend’s job is to monitor white power groups in person and online. They share some crazy ass shit with me. During the Trump election, the white power folks were straight up (extremely racist) socialists – they sounded like Star Trek Mirror Universe Bernie Sanders, and it was wild to hear Trump’s populist talking points sometimes mirror what the white power socialists were saying.
Calling them idiots while searching for their support does wonders however
Oh I’m sure that’s what keeps them from taking a pro-american stance, the name calling
Why does it feel like it’s only ever Bernie Sanders that is pushing to bring the US inline with Europe?
As someone from Europe I would absolutely love a 32 hour work week without any pay cut. In my previous company I bargained myself a 32 hour work week with a pay cut and it was excellent, it felt like I had so much free time to do other things.
Because he’s popular, so he gets headlines
Because 95% of them are on the corporate dime.
Because he doesn’t have to accomplish anything. Does he have a plan for this? Has he done any due diligence on transition? Has he studied the impact on small business vs large business? It’s easy to tell people what they want to hear. It’s harder to implement. Studies have shown it working in other countries, but that’s nowhere near enough to just make it happen in the US.
Why the downvotes, its FUD but asked with good intent. If hes wrong, explain or link to someone.Whatever the “biden cult” is, i dont want to know
It’s ok, the more I get downvoted without anyone challenging a point the more it shows I’m not wrong. If Bernie Sanders releases a plan for this today I want to read it. Until then it just feels like a circle jerk of complaining and spreading the same apathy that lead to 2016, which no same person wants.
I seem to recall that he wasn’t just a criticizer but that he actually had plans for change. I didn’t think he’d win, though, so I voted for Warren who seemed less liberal but a clear and demonstrated protector of normie debtors from the abuses of the financial sector.
His economic plan required larger domestic growth than had ever happened, even more so than Marco Rubio’s plan that was ridiculed by the Left. His rationale for why we’d have the growth was not backed up by any experts, and read like some fantasy novel where consequences and hardships don’t exist. Many of his plans ignored any strategy of likelihood of getting passed, and several were prerequisites of each other meaning if the first failed the rest would come crumbling down like a house of cards.
He also had major holes where he took hard line stances without any backup plan. His healthcare ideas boiled down to universal care or bust, where failure would have been catastrophic. To think Republicans give a shit if the system collapses. They’d do it just to win elections.
I didn’t dislike his ideas, I disliked his lack of strategy and planning. Bernie is a very good person, but not a very good politician. Strategy is super important, and he doesn’t strike me as someone able to make difficult decisions and would stick to his ideals which could very well have catastrophic consequences.
All that said, If he won the primary I would have voted for him in the general without question.
People disagreeing with you doesn’t mean you’re right. If anything, it tends to mean the opposite. Also, how are you getting downvoted? This website doesn’t appear to have a downvote button.
This website doesn’t appear to have a downvote button.
It depends on how the administrator set up their instance. I have an account on lemmy.one which doesn’t allow downvotes. I also have an account where I’m posting this that does. Both connect to the same content.
“Without anyone challenging a point” is the key part. If I’m wrong, no one has out any effort into showing it.
Your Instance may not support downvoting. Or the client you are using. Beehaw didn’t when I used it.
That’s simply not possible, I need my employees to be working more hours, not less. Last year I could barely afford my sailing trip to Aruba. If such a law passes I’m going to have to fire some people for sure or raise rents on my tenants.
I know this is sarcastic but I can’t help read it in my literal bosses voice, who didn’t give us Christmas bonuses but did fix the sail on his yacht immediately after a storm for like £20k or some bs
Yeah even knowing full well it was sarcasm couldn’t help but hear it in the voice of my boss, who is so delusional they constantly talk about rolling back my department, the only one that actually makes money, cause our wages are too expensive (spoilers, they aren’t, 1/10th of our staff is on food stamps but our boss can afford a new luxury car.)
Sorry to hear that, what they put foodstamp people through is horrific
Capitalism at work, record profits means checks notes. … more people than ever on welfare and increasingly impoverished working class… Huh
The less you pay your employees, the more money you get to keep.
That sounds like something that should be advertised, possibly permanently on the side of said car.
Same. I was searching for that down vote button with my finger tbh.
…Where is it, anyway?
You’ve already sacrificed so much, we can’t possibly ask you to sacrifice anymore. God, we’ve been so selfish talking about barely being able to afford rent or food to eat, when really we should’ve been thinking about how you felt about the whole thing. I’m so sorry we’ve inconvenienced you in any way. You know, go ahead and skip paying me for a bit and take that submarine trip on OceanGate you’ve always wanted to do, everyone has been talking so much about it lately.
Its funny how schizophrenic your posts are from thread to thread.
Thank you
If such a law passes I’m going to have to fire some people for sure or raise rents on my tenants.
If gov’t intervention makes both those options impossible–might I suggest constant verbal and psychological abuse?
Or, y’know, you could just skip the sailing trip to Aruba.
This goes against what Republicans want. They’re literally removing child labor laws so kids can get into the work force while they’re in middle school. Start a kid working at 12 years old and they can get about 50 years of labor out of them. Chances are that kid will be working 60-70 years and won’t be able to retire.
I got a job at 16 and worked part time through college and have been full time since. 1/3 of my adult life (6 years) was doing 60 hour weeks. I’m by no means the most responsible with my finances but I don’t buy tons of frivolous stuff. Haven’t been on a real vacation since 2014. Haven’t taken off unless I’ve gotten sick (I caught COVID 3 times).
I don’t expect to be able to retire. I expect to starve to death when I can no longer work.
And even like that you are better off than 95% of the planet
What is this comment even supposed to prove??
We’re talking about how there’s a major gap in the finances of corporate execs, meanwhile the people that they make their money off the backs of are going to not have enough money themselves for life in general.
And your only argument is “people elsewhere have it worse.” That’s a non-argument. It may be true but contributes nothing meaningful to the conversation so please find a reason that this comment or having a job and not being able to afford life when/if they have to stop working is a good thing like you seem to be implying
For like 10 years my work didn’t want to pay as many pharmacist hours so offered 30 hour full time roles for the slower stores. I rode that wave as long as I could. It’s a really stressful job, but at 30 hours it felt like I had a rough job. At 40+ hours it feels like I have a rough life. I’m fully in support of this 32 hour workweek. Those extra few hours won back can be magical for physical health, mental health, hobbies. I even got an extra degree in computer science.
Dude should have run on this vs the the 15 dollar minimum wage.
This would have garnered him more support. I would have door knocked for the old bastard.
whynotboth_es.jpg
Wouldn’t a 32 hour work week, keeping the same wage, sort of raise the minimum wage by default? I work full time, work less hours, and keep the same wage?
Kind of, except you might still need to work multiple jobs because one doesn’t pay enough to keep you alive
Sure, yes, but the minimum wage should probably also still increase more than the average, since it is still the lowest-paid who are getting screwed hardest of all
This is why we need unions.
The autoworkers union the article refers to as an example is seeking a 46% pay rise to coincide with the transition to 32 hours.
Dems would’ve torpedoed him no matter what he pushed for issues.
I tell people time and time again that work starts at 9 and end at 3pm, everything after is shuffling paper and killing time.
I started working a 6:30am-2:30pm job and it’s life changing. The first hour is just getting settled, I spend lunchtime organizing my calendar and Emails, and I still have time for a full day of activities after work.
I am super jealous. Imagine finishing work and have time to hang out with your friends and family. Living the dream.
Being up that early (for me) means I need to be in bed by 10pm, so home by 9. Most of my friends are not available at 3pm and usually stay out until 10-11. It can lead to feeling very isolated in my experience.
I’m not OP but I worked a 6-3 job for a year or so, gladly swapped it out for a 10-7pm, get to sleep in and stay put late.
But it’s all about preferences and priorities.
i wish i could do that, but my body is not programmed for such early rising. i tried and it is a wonder i didnt crash my car on the way to work
It’s definitely not for everyone! I’m one of those weirdos who wakes up super early every day naturally. My partner, on the other hand, naturally sleeps til 10 or 11.
Well, jobs are different. It’s just that sometimes you get too tired to do anything effectively an hour or two before your work technically ends.
This would DOUBLE my effective free time. It would improve my life so much.
But what about the poor billionaires?
“I’ve got one hobby space program yes, but what about second hobby space program?”
While I like this idea, this is not the argument union leadership should be making to achieve this goal:
Our union’s membership is clearly fed up with living paycheck-to-paycheck while the corporate elite and billionaire class continue to make out like bandits," said Fain in a statement last week. "The Big Three have been breaking the bank while we have been breaking our backs
A change in hours does nothing to address pay discrepancies and you need to pick one lane and fight for it and get it, then attack the other direction.
This. Too many different issues get conflated and then focus is lost and nothing changes
Would this include a 25% increase to hourly minimums? Because otherwise it only benefits salaried employees.
And what about workers who are paid by productivity and not time? Salespersons on commission, servers receiving tips, ride-share drivers?
I’m all for a 32-hour work-week; that’s what I have myself. But let’s not pretend this would be enough, or that the main beneficiaries are he working class.
“No loss in pay” as far as I can interpret it would mean getting paid the same for working 32 hours as you would have for working 40, yes
The autoworkers union the article refers to as an example is seeking a 46% pay rise to coincide with the transition to 32 hours.
My concern is the small business owners.
Massive corps - absolutely. Small mom and pop stores, 3-5 employee business… less inclined.
Save your tears.
The reason businesses exist is for owners to gain wealth from the labor of their workers.
No one is required to own a business.
Anyone not liking such a position may become a worker like the rest of us.
And then what happens when everyone chooses to be a worker?
I am not expecting business owners to choose to be workers.
I am noting that owning a business is a choice.
The reason for choosing to be a business owner is to gain profit from the labor of others.
Business owners are not heroes, and neither are they victims.
Save your tears, and support workers.
I would absolutely love to only work 32 hours a week instead of 40, 45 or 50.
I would also love four weeks vacation a year, full healthcare coverage and a unicorn in my backyard please.
Except for the unicorn, your last paragraph is my reality. Oh and it’s five weeks vacation, actually. My wife even has six. Sick days not included. Those are all part of the universal health care we have.
38h work week btw. Rarely overtime.
I have 35 days on my current job but it’s the first time. Normally it’s been 30. I’m in Sweden.
And we don’t work no 40 hours here. People come in around 9 and leave around 16 with an hour lunch break and a lot of talking and slacking during the day. This is in IT and it’s been like that on every IT job I’ve ever had.
Nobody can or want to focus for 8 hours per day their entire lives, that’s madness. We are humans. I usually focus for maybe 4 hours to get something done but I don’t push myself to work more then necessary. My salary doesn’t go up with more work produced.
EU?
It’s like this in all Scandinavian countries.
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6-7 weeks paid vacation.
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Free healthcare (except dental. Also we still pay for prescription drugs, just not insane prices).
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37 hours per week.
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Almost equal parental leave (you’re forced to take a month off work, paid of course, mothers a bit more, but then split is as you want).
And then keep in mind that we pay 40-60% taxes depending on income.
When we had our son, I had 2 weeks time off from work. HR sat me down and told me “by law, we can’t fire you until you take one day over the 2 weeks of unpaid time off. You are so lucky! You used to get zero time off. I remember when we had our baby, I worked until midnight while my wife was in labor.”
Then I was fired 3 months later for “subpar performance” and they noted I seemed fatigued and frequently forgot things. Like, no shit I had 3 hours of sleep per day for months.
We pay about 25-30% in taxes IIRC but health insurance bleeds you dry. We just incurred $4500 medical debt because my wife had to go to the hospital. $100,000 student loan debt. $35,000 child birthing costs, of which $8500 was out of pocket.
Yeah, all of those expenses would’ve been covered by the taxes where I live. Even the student debt - we get about $900 per month while studying and education is free.
Y’all need some democratic socialism
-
Sounds a whole lot like Norway, presuming their wife is 60+ years
Man that sounds so great. Currently work weeks are varying between 40,45 and 50. PM. I’m up to about 2 1/2 weeks vacation a year working for a small business. But at least they let me take it, unlike my friend who works at AWS who hasn’t had a vacation in 5 years.
Family also pays $2400/month in health insurance payments, although 2/3 of that is covered by our employer. $6,000 deductible.
Apart from the mystical horse, those aren’t fantastical things. France has a 35 hour work week, many countries have 4 weeks vacation as the norm, and most rich countries have full healthcare coverage. These are policy choices, not impossible dream worlds.
It’s sad that over here in America people are conditioned to think they are fantastical things.
In France I work 32 hours, have 7 weeks holiday and awesome healthcare.
I have cows in place of a unicorn though.
Republicans have told me that there’s no way the country can survive that
They lied.
I mean they have to raise the retirement age and had (are having?) Protests about it the whole year didn’t they
“Have to”? That’s obviously more than up for debate, especially considering how many people protested.
God forbid they consider increasing taxes for the rich instead.
It’s 64, that’s lower than the US has ever been
That’s just because they are whining
I don’t know why you throw the unicorn in there as if the rest of your comment is some crazy idea. Most of Europe functions extremely well under the work conditions you described, why is America somehow incapable of having the quality of life our European cousins have?
The unicorn comment makes me think you’re being a sarcastic ass.
The rest of your comment is 100% doable. At least, lots of other countries are doing it.
I was just kidding about the unicorn, as living in the US it seems just about as likely to get a unicorn as getting universal healthcare or vacation.
😅🦄
Anyway, my son loves unicorns and I grew up watching my little pony so whatever
Fair enough.
Oh please. Would that ever work, besides the dozens of countries and corporations that have managed without issues?
Besides what would you do with the unicorn poop
Clean fuel for the furnace
Some organic fertilizer for the garden, of course!
The vacation period is a minimum standard in the EU.
Beyond the daily and weekly rest periods, your staff has the right to at least 4 weeks of paid holidays per year. You cannot replace these holidays with a payment unless the employment contract has ended before the staff member has used up all their annual leave.
In the UK minimum holiday entitlement is 28 days. I am always appalled at how badly the US allows it workers to be treated. I really wish the US would start thinking more about working to live and not living to work.
If people who are negatively affected by it would stop voting for people who make it a campaign promise to never offer these things, we can’t get anywhere
I work 35 hours a week, have six weeks of holiday plus bank holidays and universal healthcare. It’s not impossible.
I have basically this in the UK
Fun fact: government-based healthcare of any sort is great for employers and employees, and results in more money for both
This assumes a “worst-case implementation” resulting in UK level taxes and just a change to who manages insurance/payment, and is true for both a public option and single-payer system.
I have 5 weeks vacation and universal health care. I’m just pushing for the 32 hrs now.
It’s depressing that you’ve been convinced that full healthcare coverage is as unrealistic as a unicorn in your backyard.
While I love this idea and Bernie… There’s no fucking way that’ll happen.
There is no way we will get a 40 hour work week
It will not happen if we just sit and wait, nor if we just vote, but if we build communities and unions, if we act each day to move our relationships with one another more deeply toward a real transformation, then we can build a society not for bosses but for everyone.
Companies can afford it
I can only see this happening hand in hand with Medicare For All and the decoupling of healthcare from full time employment.
Service jobs, which are currently 80 percent of US employment, require the same amount of hours with actual people present, e.g. you can’t wait more tables, or answer more customer service calls, in 20% less time.
Removing the cost of healthcare from employers will allow them to allocate some of the savings towards employee salaries instead of healthcare insurance.
Allow them to allocate some of the savings towards employee salaries? Why would they do that when they could pocket the difference like they have been doing to all other cost savings and productivity boosts?
How are the employers going to pay for the additional employees to work those 8 hours, while paying the existing employees the same salary for working 8 less hours?
The money has to come from somewhere.
P.s. Not all employers have CEOs making millions in bonuses. Nearly half of employees in the US work for small businesses , including single person businesses.
Maybe this is stupid question but…single person business just mean it’s one person doing everything right? In those cases, how would changing the standard full time to 32 hours affect them in any way?
They wouldn’t be changing their own salary or have to change anyone else’s salary unless I’m missing something
ETA: small business just means less than 500 employees, I’m sure a good number of them could still afford it. And an easy (and admittedly imperfect) solution could be just adding an exception for small businesses.
I’m not an economist but I bet that the answer is going to be similar to how employers now pay for the additional employees to work ever since work weeks got made to be 40 hours and not 60 or whatever back during the 1800s.
40 hours a week isn’t some magic number.
Nobody is saying you should have to do 40 hours work in 32 hours - rather the company hires more people to cover those hours.
This only works out in 9 to 5 jobs. There are ao many people out there that work very different hours. Many career fields that work a lot longer shifts wouod not be able to simply work less. It just doesn’t work that way.
Firefighters work 48 or 72 hours a week depending on the week. We can’t just say, ok cool. You work 32 hours a week now.
You don’t understand… After 32 hours it’s overtime pay instead of after 40
That’s totally understandable, but the “standard” work week is 40 hours. He’s just saying to change the standard. So if you’re job isn’t standard hours, it would probably just mean a little more overtime pay. Still a benefit to those people
The point is, why is 40 hours the standard? What makes that the standard? Who says it’s the standard?
Lobbyists for the 1%…ohhhhh…right…and now the real issue comes about.
This is the opposite of where the 8 hour day/40 hour week came from. In the US, it was fought for and won by various pro labor groups and unions in the early 1900s and became part of US law under the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938.
Removing the cost of healthcare from employers will allow them to allocate some of the savings towards employee salaries instead of healthcare insurance. Or just, y’know, keep the savings. On the bright side, it would mean you no longer depend on your job for healthcare, so people would have more freedom to quit.
I’m hoping the push for a 32 hour week gains enough traction that we could actually feasibly negotiate a 9-day sprint (2 week period) as the “middle ground”, at least until the next wave of negotiations pushes further.
Gimme every other monday off, that way I’m always working toward either a long weekend or an early weekend
that’s exactly what I work, and my employer has been pushing to remove that in our pay negotiations. they backed down to making it “optional” but it sounds like all new hires wouldn’t be on the 9 day fortnight system.
sad how things are getting worse not better
Man saying two sentences about something is a pretty low bar to “champion” it.
