You’re not dumb and you’ve heard it a thousand times I’m sure, but you live in a country with FPtP voting and is therefore a two party system. You know that not voting or voting third party in the general election only benefits Trump. The ONLY chance of things getting better in Israel is if Kamala wins, even if she doesn’t do anything, because the alternative is things get worse. Those are facts.
Damn near everyone is anti-genoocide, but most of us realize the reality of the situation. Kamala may make it better over there, Trump will make it worse, and there is no third option. As mentioned there’s one option for your vote that isn’t pro Trump. Voting for Kamala is the best option for Israel regardless if you think she’s doing good enough for your beliefs.
If you disagree, tell me how you think any other vote will help Israel. If it’s purely a moral choice, explain how you think it’s morally better to turn your back on the problem knowing full well the facts of FPtP, vs voting for the best option that may make things better. The possibility of betterment is better than no possibility at all.
In the worst case scenarios, personally I would rather say, “I voted for Kamala hoping she would improve the situation in Israel which didn’t happen” instead of, “I voted third party / didn’t vote at all, and Trump made it worse in Israel”. At least in one situation, there’s a chance.
I’ll jump in here, though I know that everybody is dug in, and this is akin to poking the hornets’ nest. Anyway, it’s a matter of differing ethical calculations. On one side is utilitarianism, which says that if your choice is between Nazis who will murder 5,000,000 Jews, and worse-Nazis who will kill 5,000,001 Jews, then it’s a moral imperative to support Hitler for the sake of that one person.
And that’s… not wrong. I can imagine that many people would make that call, if it were some sort of send-a-time-traveler-to-kill-Hitler-or-not scenario, when the outcomes are fixed. But imagine deciding to support Hitler and personally aiding the systematic murder of 5,000,000 humans when the alternative is speculative, still in the future, when it’s not assured. I think a lot fewer people would be willing to do it. How many more people would the hypothetical worse-Nazis have to kill to make that an appealing choice?
Everybody has got a moral line after which we can’t abide cold, utilitarian calculations. Maybe some people would help produce the Zyklon B on the prospect of saving one life. Maybe some would only do it if it was required to save humanity from extinction. Probably a lot of people would do it to save themselves. (Hello, 1930’s Germans!) That’s getting off-topic, the point is that everybody has a line, and some of us would just refuse to aid the Holocaust.
Furthermore, the reality is not nearly so black and white as it is usually framed here on Lemmy. We don’t actually know what a future dementia-addled President would do. He has the attention span of a toddler. He’s not a strong manager and has a lot of power-hungry underlings (like Vance); his administration might resemble a bucket of rats each scrambling for the top. We don’t know how the world would react to anything he’d do. Bottom line, it’s speculative at this point.
And on the other side, the usual framing casts Democrats as fixed in their positions and imperturbable as the faces on Mount Rushmore, or at least boxed-in politically. They’re not. President Biden has already felt the heat and slightly altered his position on Israel in a couple of instances. In fact, while we could change and abide their support of genocide, they too could change at any time to just simply not support genocide. They could even frame it (accurately, as I see it) as tough love, protecting Israel from itself and assuring its survival long-term.
That’s why we pressure the people actually in power now, who are the ones supporting genocide right now, because that’s democracy in action. Yes, to be fair, it might result in a worse outcome later, but that’s far from assured, and in the mean time, you’re telling people not to even try to stop evil.
The election system is first passed the post, that doesn’t mean that’s where our political agency and influence ends – we just proved that with Biden stepping down. We created a third option.
A large enough number of people said “We will not vote for a zionist” and it had a real world effect on the behavior of the party. That never would’ve happened if people just accepted that Biden was running again and there was nothing we could do.
Damn near everyone is anti-genoocide
This is not true. There are many Israel supporters, even here on this thread.
If you disagree, tell me how you think any other vote will help Israel.
I’ll assume this was a freudian slip and you meant help Gaza.
The only hope Gaza has in regards to the US is if we actually work to hold our own politicians to account. Republicans are a write-off, but Democrats are suppose to be the more moral party that has a baseline on human rights.
That notion needs to be enforced by voters, Democrats need to be held to at least the most basic of standards.
When we vote for an out and proud genocide supporter we move the Democrats further from reform that would help Gaza. If we vote for a pro-genocide dem it’s the exact same to the people in Gaza as us voting for a Republican, and it has the added effect of signaling to the party that voters will accept genocide support from Democrats.
It should be unacceptable.
In the worst case scenarios, personally I would rather say, “I voted for Kamala hoping she would improve the situation in Israel which didn’t happen” instead of, “I voted third party / didn’t vote at all, and Trump made it worse in Israel”. At least in one situation, there’s a chance.
And if she signals support for Netanyahu during the visit, I would rather say that I voted against a future of continued genocide support for the Democratic party.
You’re correct, I meant Gaza, or improve the situation in Israel.
It wasn’t pro Palestine protestors that got Biden to step down. It was the pressure from his declining mental state. Policy didn’t have anything to do with.
I do stand by my comment that the majority of people are anti-genoocide. If every Jewish person in America was pro genocide, that would still be a minority of people.
I still don’t understand how with all of those facts, you could possibly justify not voting Kamala when it seems your single issue is this particular issue, not that it’s not significant. There will be one of two outcomes in November, Dem or Rep. Unless Kamala does something exceptionally unhinged before the DNC, the candidates will be Trump or Kamala. One will 100% be worse for Gaza. Not voting, voting third party, or voting Trump are all the same thing in reality.
All of this ignores the fact that it’s a much more complex issue than yes or no.
100% pressure from the debate. I didn’t hear a peep from the Palestine vocalists for weeks leading up to his announcement, only his debate performance.
So the fact that Uncommitted votes across multiple swing states added up to more than the margins he won by in those states in 2020 had no influence.
I think you know that’s not true. His debate performance was the final straw but wouldn’t have been enough on its own. The dems were calculating (wrongly, I think) that they could ignore the anti-genocide demographic as long as they made up for it with right-wing independents. The debate happened and the combination of losing both groups of voters made it impossible to ignore reality, even for the neoliberal establishment.
Biden being ousted was a referendum by voters on his support for the genocide as much as it was about age.
You’re not dumb and you’ve heard it a thousand times I’m sure, but you live in a country with FPtP voting and is therefore a two party system. You know that not voting or voting third party in the general election only benefits Trump. The ONLY chance of things getting better in Israel is if Kamala wins, even if she doesn’t do anything, because the alternative is things get worse. Those are facts.
Damn near everyone is anti-genoocide, but most of us realize the reality of the situation. Kamala may make it better over there, Trump will make it worse, and there is no third option. As mentioned there’s one option for your vote that isn’t pro Trump. Voting for Kamala is the best option for Israel regardless if you think she’s doing good enough for your beliefs.
If you disagree, tell me how you think any other vote will help Israel. If it’s purely a moral choice, explain how you think it’s morally better to turn your back on the problem knowing full well the facts of FPtP, vs voting for the best option that may make things better. The possibility of betterment is better than no possibility at all.
In the worst case scenarios, personally I would rather say, “I voted for Kamala hoping she would improve the situation in Israel which didn’t happen” instead of, “I voted third party / didn’t vote at all, and Trump made it worse in Israel”. At least in one situation, there’s a chance.
I’ll jump in here, though I know that everybody is dug in, and this is akin to poking the hornets’ nest. Anyway, it’s a matter of differing ethical calculations. On one side is utilitarianism, which says that if your choice is between Nazis who will murder 5,000,000 Jews, and worse-Nazis who will kill 5,000,001 Jews, then it’s a moral imperative to support Hitler for the sake of that one person.
And that’s… not wrong. I can imagine that many people would make that call, if it were some sort of send-a-time-traveler-to-kill-Hitler-or-not scenario, when the outcomes are fixed. But imagine deciding to support Hitler and personally aiding the systematic murder of 5,000,000 humans when the alternative is speculative, still in the future, when it’s not assured. I think a lot fewer people would be willing to do it. How many more people would the hypothetical worse-Nazis have to kill to make that an appealing choice?
Everybody has got a moral line after which we can’t abide cold, utilitarian calculations. Maybe some people would help produce the Zyklon B on the prospect of saving one life. Maybe some would only do it if it was required to save humanity from extinction. Probably a lot of people would do it to save themselves. (Hello, 1930’s Germans!) That’s getting off-topic, the point is that everybody has a line, and some of us would just refuse to aid the Holocaust.
Furthermore, the reality is not nearly so black and white as it is usually framed here on Lemmy. We don’t actually know what a future dementia-addled President would do. He has the attention span of a toddler. He’s not a strong manager and has a lot of power-hungry underlings (like Vance); his administration might resemble a bucket of rats each scrambling for the top. We don’t know how the world would react to anything he’d do. Bottom line, it’s speculative at this point.
And on the other side, the usual framing casts Democrats as fixed in their positions and imperturbable as the faces on Mount Rushmore, or at least boxed-in politically. They’re not. President Biden has already felt the heat and slightly altered his position on Israel in a couple of instances. In fact, while we could change and abide their support of genocide, they too could change at any time to just simply not support genocide. They could even frame it (accurately, as I see it) as tough love, protecting Israel from itself and assuring its survival long-term.
That’s why we pressure the people actually in power now, who are the ones supporting genocide right now, because that’s democracy in action. Yes, to be fair, it might result in a worse outcome later, but that’s far from assured, and in the mean time, you’re telling people not to even try to stop evil.
The election system is first passed the post, that doesn’t mean that’s where our political agency and influence ends – we just proved that with Biden stepping down. We created a third option.
A large enough number of people said “We will not vote for a zionist” and it had a real world effect on the behavior of the party. That never would’ve happened if people just accepted that Biden was running again and there was nothing we could do.
This is not true. There are many Israel supporters, even here on this thread.
I’ll assume this was a freudian slip and you meant help Gaza.
The only hope Gaza has in regards to the US is if we actually work to hold our own politicians to account. Republicans are a write-off, but Democrats are suppose to be the more moral party that has a baseline on human rights.
That notion needs to be enforced by voters, Democrats need to be held to at least the most basic of standards.
When we vote for an out and proud genocide supporter we move the Democrats further from reform that would help Gaza. If we vote for a pro-genocide dem it’s the exact same to the people in Gaza as us voting for a Republican, and it has the added effect of signaling to the party that voters will accept genocide support from Democrats.
It should be unacceptable.
And if she signals support for Netanyahu during the visit, I would rather say that I voted against a future of continued genocide support for the Democratic party.
You’re correct, I meant Gaza, or improve the situation in Israel.
It wasn’t pro Palestine protestors that got Biden to step down. It was the pressure from his declining mental state. Policy didn’t have anything to do with.
I do stand by my comment that the majority of people are anti-genoocide. If every Jewish person in America was pro genocide, that would still be a minority of people.
I still don’t understand how with all of those facts, you could possibly justify not voting Kamala when it seems your single issue is this particular issue, not that it’s not significant. There will be one of two outcomes in November, Dem or Rep. Unless Kamala does something exceptionally unhinged before the DNC, the candidates will be Trump or Kamala. One will 100% be worse for Gaza. Not voting, voting third party, or voting Trump are all the same thing in reality.
All of this ignores the fact that it’s a much more complex issue than yes or no.
Yes, it was. There were multiple swing states that he simply couldn’t win due to the Uncommitted vote and the party knew it. Don’t gaslight.
100% pressure from the debate. I didn’t hear a peep from the Palestine vocalists for weeks leading up to his announcement, only his debate performance.
So the fact that Uncommitted votes across multiple swing states added up to more than the margins he won by in those states in 2020 had no influence.
I think you know that’s not true. His debate performance was the final straw but wouldn’t have been enough on its own. The dems were calculating (wrongly, I think) that they could ignore the anti-genocide demographic as long as they made up for it with right-wing independents. The debate happened and the combination of losing both groups of voters made it impossible to ignore reality, even for the neoliberal establishment.
Biden being ousted was a referendum by voters on his support for the genocide as much as it was about age.
I disagree, but you make valid points. I just don’t think that it truly played any part in the decision.