“They have to kill the children because there are terrorists next to them” is really not a moral defense for killing children. If anything, it makes it seem like the terrorists have a point.
“The terrorism came first” is also not a moral defense for killing children, sorry. I get that you really like the idea of killing people, but that doesn’t make it morally defensible.
They have always been content with letting children die, and with killing children. No pretzels. I have a consistent model. Happy to try and explain any distinction for you.
I never said anything about myself. Why are you making this about me?
You have repeatedly justified the killing of children. Suddenly calling them innocent victims doesn’t take back the fact that you think it’s acceptable for IDF troops to put a bullet in their brain. It just means that you’re okay with killing innocent victims.
In other countries. So they ran to Palestine and started killing the people there. You’re not allowed to kill everyone and anyone you want, including innocents ams civilians, just because you were wronged by a completely different population of people once.
Wtf are you talking about? The earliest recorded history of the Levant is in Hebrew, written by Judites. The Ottoman Empire (far right pan Islamists) rounded them up, massacred them, took many as slaves, tortured them, and gave them negligeble rights for the last two thousand years, and it was other own Islamists back and back.
Israel is there now though, and it’s not going anywhere. It is a democracy with a legitimate government and Gaza is a failed state occupied by terrorists, sorry to break the reality of political science to you.
The last two thousand years? The Ottoman Empire was a refuge for Jewish people for a long time. It wasn’t just a neverending massacre or they wouldn’t have kept settling there from other places. It gave then some restrictions, but it did the same to Christians. And comparatively, they lived pretty good lives and thrived, especially compared to the oppression and massacred they faced elsewhere in Europe. It had the largest Jewish population by the end of the 16th century. They came from Russia, Prussia, ran from Spain because of the Spanish Inquisition, or Portugal, etc. It was way better than living under Christians for a long time. They would encourage each other to move there. It wasn’t until the 19th century that antisemitism started to ramp up there. And most scholars agree the attitude was imported from Christian Arabs, so it’s not just a Muslim thing. It sucks that it started to rise again then, but nationalism does that. It made it worse on both sides, since around that time Zionism started picking up steam, too, and they were buying land and kicking off the native tenants to make a country. Not to excuse the antisemitism, because obviously that is horrible, and there’s a long history of it happening all over the world. But the point is, so many immigrated there because of things like the Holocaust in Germany or the Russian pogroms, then started fighting completely unrelated people and kicking them off their land, like was done to them somewhere else. Same reason that even though I respect the struggle of slaves, I don’t approve of the colonial way Liberia was founded and the way the colonists treated the indigenous people.
Israel is barely a democracy. There are millions of people under their control who don’t get a vote. Their leader is stoking a war and nationalistic fervor to avoid corruption trials. They jail people for criticism, require military service, and have killed more journalists than any recent conflict. They’re an apartheid, settler colonial ethnostate that only exists because of racist and antisemitic Western interests. Gaza is not a failed state, because every attempt to become a state is stymied by Israel, the country that actually controls all their infrastructure, food, travel, sea, and air. Israel as a nation state could easily disappear and be replaced by an actual state with equal rights and equality for everyone in the area, without a single person being killed in the process, if the US and the Israeli people or government wished it. And that would be a good thing for both the Palestinians who could live free, and the Israelis who don’t want to have to worry about being threatened by actual attacks from rightfully pissed people all the time.
More, but I don’t think it gives them the right to genocide innocent people. And it can definitely still be improved, a lot. We should have a higher bar than that.
They require military service to build roads and bridges. Many, many places do it also. Seems like a lot of people criticize only Israel for this, like it’s only a problem when it’s Jewish people having a military.
You’re right, Gaza is not a failed state. It would have to have been a state to be a failed state. The correct terms for it are irredenta or unincorporated territory, a lawless shithole with stakeholders that don’t care ahout it (unless it is killing Jews). Literally the only concievable future for Gaza that isn’t a complete humanitarian catastrophe is going to look a lot like five to ten years of martial law. Gaza has zero capabilitynor capacity to rebuild itself and literally nobody else cares about it enough to do it for Gaza except the one country you would have a problem doing it. So your plan really is to condemn Gaza. If you wanted to save Gaza you’d be in Gaza pointing out who Hamas is and where they are hiding. See, even Gaza doesn’t care to save Gaza.
Israel doesn’t care about Gazans either. If they did, they wouldn’t be bombing every hospital and refugee camp and preventing aid from coming in. Nor would they be preventing them from making a state and having self-rule at every opportunity. Gaza is already condemned when Israel decided to reduce it all to rubble and make public statements about reducing the population from millions to a few thousands. Hamas is just an excuse to raze and then take the land. Without Hamas, you get something like the government in the West Bank, which hasn’t done anything to prevent Israel from taking more land, imprisoning and killing more Palestinians, and failed at every opportunity to get them their own state or a good quality of life, either, because they have no power against the US and Israel. It’s the same state of affairs but slower. So no, Hamas isn’t the cause of Gaza people suffering, it’s Israel.
I agree. The history is irrelevant. Israel is there now. Those who stood to oppose it have been defeated politically and military and if they were at all led by legitimate, well intended non-genociral, non-criminals, they’d surrender, sue for peace. They literally don’t want peace, though.
They surrendered but then kept getting killed, getting their land taken, and forced into smaller and smaller spaces. Then in those spaces, they were imprisoned, starved, and oppressed and controlled. Human beings want a quality of life Israel won’t let them have. They’ve diplomatically and strategically geographically isolated them away from having a state, had walls built around them, had their food and trade and movement restricted. They get randomly shot or arrested. In the West Bank, they get their food and trees ripped up and their houses taken. You can’t ask a people to sit there and accept that. Even if they’ve been defeated militarily, human beings desire some innate dignity and quality of life. No group of human beings on Earth would accept how Israel has treated them for 70 years. It’s why some ghettos revolted in the Holocaust, or the French resistance existed in WW2. Palestinians want peace, but Israel wants an occupied people to sit there quietly while they get oppressed and slowly lose the rest of their land and are forced to emigrate away from their homes or die.
“They have to kill the children because there are terrorists next to them” is really not a moral defense for killing children. If anything, it makes it seem like the terrorists have a point.
The terrorism came first.
“The terrorism came first” is also not a moral defense for killing children, sorry. I get that you really like the idea of killing people, but that doesn’t make it morally defensible.
Yes, there is no moral defense for hamas’s decision to let these kids die.
Ah, so now Hamas is letting children die from Israeli bombs and bullets.
Boy do you do some pretzels trying to avoid connecting the victim with the killer.
It makes more sense when you realize how many simply think Israel can do no wrong.
It’s so fucking stupid. Even if you’re on Israel’s side, just admit they do bad things.
They have always been content with letting children die, and with killing children. No pretzels. I have a consistent model. Happy to try and explain any distinction for you.
You are also content with letting children die. You already said it was justified because they were indoctrinated.
So I guess you’re as bad as they are. Congratulations.
We get it, you’re such a good person. I was talking about their parents and older relatives. Obviously the kids are innocent victims.
I never said anything about myself. Why are you making this about me?
You have repeatedly justified the killing of children. Suddenly calling them innocent victims doesn’t take back the fact that you think it’s acceptable for IDF troops to put a bullet in their brain. It just means that you’re okay with killing innocent victims.
I mean yes but that’s how Israel started
The terrorism against Jews started long before Israel.
Yes but it’s also how zionists started the county
And where were the Jews before that?
Are you trying to say zionists == jew?
No?
Then why does it matter where they were while zionists were doing terrorism?
In other countries. So they ran to Palestine and started killing the people there. You’re not allowed to kill everyone and anyone you want, including innocents ams civilians, just because you were wronged by a completely different population of people once.
Wtf are you talking about? The earliest recorded history of the Levant is in Hebrew, written by Judites. The Ottoman Empire (far right pan Islamists) rounded them up, massacred them, took many as slaves, tortured them, and gave them negligeble rights for the last two thousand years, and it was other own Islamists back and back.
Israel is there now though, and it’s not going anywhere. It is a democracy with a legitimate government and Gaza is a failed state occupied by terrorists, sorry to break the reality of political science to you.
The last two thousand years? The Ottoman Empire was a refuge for Jewish people for a long time. It wasn’t just a neverending massacre or they wouldn’t have kept settling there from other places. It gave then some restrictions, but it did the same to Christians. And comparatively, they lived pretty good lives and thrived, especially compared to the oppression and massacred they faced elsewhere in Europe. It had the largest Jewish population by the end of the 16th century. They came from Russia, Prussia, ran from Spain because of the Spanish Inquisition, or Portugal, etc. It was way better than living under Christians for a long time. They would encourage each other to move there. It wasn’t until the 19th century that antisemitism started to ramp up there. And most scholars agree the attitude was imported from Christian Arabs, so it’s not just a Muslim thing. It sucks that it started to rise again then, but nationalism does that. It made it worse on both sides, since around that time Zionism started picking up steam, too, and they were buying land and kicking off the native tenants to make a country. Not to excuse the antisemitism, because obviously that is horrible, and there’s a long history of it happening all over the world. But the point is, so many immigrated there because of things like the Holocaust in Germany or the Russian pogroms, then started fighting completely unrelated people and kicking them off their land, like was done to them somewhere else. Same reason that even though I respect the struggle of slaves, I don’t approve of the colonial way Liberia was founded and the way the colonists treated the indigenous people.
Israel is barely a democracy. There are millions of people under their control who don’t get a vote. Their leader is stoking a war and nationalistic fervor to avoid corruption trials. They jail people for criticism, require military service, and have killed more journalists than any recent conflict. They’re an apartheid, settler colonial ethnostate that only exists because of racist and antisemitic Western interests. Gaza is not a failed state, because every attempt to become a state is stymied by Israel, the country that actually controls all their infrastructure, food, travel, sea, and air. Israel as a nation state could easily disappear and be replaced by an actual state with equal rights and equality for everyone in the area, without a single person being killed in the process, if the US and the Israeli people or government wished it. And that would be a good thing for both the Palestinians who could live free, and the Israelis who don’t want to have to worry about being threatened by actual attacks from rightfully pissed people all the time.
In your mind, is Israel more or less of a democracy than any nearby country’s immamate or caliphate?
More, but I don’t think it gives them the right to genocide innocent people. And it can definitely still be improved, a lot. We should have a higher bar than that.
They require military service to build roads and bridges. Many, many places do it also. Seems like a lot of people criticize only Israel for this, like it’s only a problem when it’s Jewish people having a military.
You’re right, Gaza is not a failed state. It would have to have been a state to be a failed state. The correct terms for it are irredenta or unincorporated territory, a lawless shithole with stakeholders that don’t care ahout it (unless it is killing Jews). Literally the only concievable future for Gaza that isn’t a complete humanitarian catastrophe is going to look a lot like five to ten years of martial law. Gaza has zero capabilitynor capacity to rebuild itself and literally nobody else cares about it enough to do it for Gaza except the one country you would have a problem doing it. So your plan really is to condemn Gaza. If you wanted to save Gaza you’d be in Gaza pointing out who Hamas is and where they are hiding. See, even Gaza doesn’t care to save Gaza.
Israel doesn’t care about Gazans either. If they did, they wouldn’t be bombing every hospital and refugee camp and preventing aid from coming in. Nor would they be preventing them from making a state and having self-rule at every opportunity. Gaza is already condemned when Israel decided to reduce it all to rubble and make public statements about reducing the population from millions to a few thousands. Hamas is just an excuse to raze and then take the land. Without Hamas, you get something like the government in the West Bank, which hasn’t done anything to prevent Israel from taking more land, imprisoning and killing more Palestinians, and failed at every opportunity to get them their own state or a good quality of life, either, because they have no power against the US and Israel. It’s the same state of affairs but slower. So no, Hamas isn’t the cause of Gaza people suffering, it’s Israel.
I agree. The history is irrelevant. Israel is there now. Those who stood to oppose it have been defeated politically and military and if they were at all led by legitimate, well intended non-genociral, non-criminals, they’d surrender, sue for peace. They literally don’t want peace, though.
They surrendered but then kept getting killed, getting their land taken, and forced into smaller and smaller spaces. Then in those spaces, they were imprisoned, starved, and oppressed and controlled. Human beings want a quality of life Israel won’t let them have. They’ve diplomatically and strategically geographically isolated them away from having a state, had walls built around them, had their food and trade and movement restricted. They get randomly shot or arrested. In the West Bank, they get their food and trees ripped up and their houses taken. You can’t ask a people to sit there and accept that. Even if they’ve been defeated militarily, human beings desire some innate dignity and quality of life. No group of human beings on Earth would accept how Israel has treated them for 70 years. It’s why some ghettos revolted in the Holocaust, or the French resistance existed in WW2. Palestinians want peace, but Israel wants an occupied people to sit there quietly while they get oppressed and slowly lose the rest of their land and are forced to emigrate away from their homes or die.