This is a summary of the Future for Local Government report - He piki tūranga, he piki kōtuku.

Recommendations that stood out to me were reducing the voting age for local elections to 16, implementing ranked voting (STV), and increasing the term limits to four years.

Also, not mentioned in RNZ’s summary is the recommendation that the number of local councils is reduced from 80 to about 15.

  • @BalpeenHammer
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    11 year ago

    Print them randomly per voting paper. Not as hard as it sounds in this day and age.

    No I think that would be very hard even in this day and age. It’s not like these are printed on a printer or anything, they come off of a printing press.

    There is no way this would be accepted by the general public.

    Why not?

    • @DaveMA
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      21 year ago

      Why not?

      Because you are giving a side a bigger share of seats if they have more parties.

      Your system is called Approval voting and is generally only used for voting individual candidates, not for parties under an MMP like system because of hte potential for abuse.

      You think it’s a fair system because everyone gets to vote for whoever they like. This is a nice theory. However, here’s what happens:

      One party (say, Labour) registers 100 new parties and lists their candidates across them, asking Labout voters to vote for all of their subsidiary parties. Suddenly Labour voters get 100 votes, and National voters get 1. National might be the preferred government for 60% of NZ, but their 60% support only gets them 1.5% of the seats.

      But of course National sees what’s happening and they register 1,000 parties! Now it swings back the other way, voting ballots have 20 pages to list all the parties. and everyone stops bothering with voting.

      • @BalpeenHammer
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        11 year ago

        Because you are giving a side a bigger share of seats if they have more parties.

        Only if they get the votes.

        Your system is called Approval voting and is generally only used for voting individual candidates, not for parties under an MMP like system because of hte potential for abuse.

        it would work even better for parties.

        One party (say, Labour) registers 100 new parties and lists their candidates across them, asking Labout voters to vote for all of their subsidiary parties. Suddenly Labour voters get 100 votes, and National voters get 1.

        Are you talking about candidates? The candidate with the most votes would win. Only one candidate would win.

        But of course National sees what’s happening and they register 1,000 parties! Now it swings back the other way, voting ballots have 20 pages to list all the parties. and everyone stops bothering with voting.

        Or they just vote for the parties they want.

        • @DaveMA
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          21 year ago

          Are you talking about candidates?

          I am not, and I’m not sure how you got that impression.

          it would work even better for parties.

          It would not, because of the abuse I outlined in my previous reply

          • @BalpeenHammer
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            11 year ago

            I am not, and I’m not sure how you got that impression.

            I got that impression because you used the word candidate.

            It would not, because of the abuse I outlined in my previous reply

            You outlined a scenario where there would be an infinite number of seats in the parliament. It’s a set number and seats are divided according to votes.

            • @DaveMA
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              11 year ago

              When I said candidate, it was when I was saying it’s normally only used for candidate voting, not for parties like yours saying it was good for.

              If you go and read it again with the knowledge I was talking about parties, hopefully you’ll see what I was getting at. It doesn’t create infinite seats, but it does create infinite votes.

              • @BalpeenHammer
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                11 year ago

                Ok I addressed the party issue as well. Just like there is only one candidate that can win there are only a limited set of seats in the parliament.

                The votes are tallied. The party with the most votes is allocated their seats. The party with the second most votes is allocated their seats and so on until all the seats are filled. There would have to be a way to settle ties but that’s not that difficult.

                • @DaveMA
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                  21 year ago

                  I don’t feel like I’m getting my idea across, regardless of if I’m correct or not. I’ll try to explain my thought process a little more.

                  Let’s say there are 10 voters, and the election is only for parties. National has a list of potential MPs.

                  National:

                  • Steve
                  • Fred
                  • Jim
                  • Bob
                  • Frank

                  Labour has put forward their candidates:

                  • Susan
                  • Mia
                  • Tama
                  • Oliver
                  • Stevie

                  And then the Legalise Marijuana party saw a loophole, and so has registered a bunch of extra parties. Theirs looks like this:

                  LM1:

                  • Jonathan

                  LM2:

                  • Katie

                  LM3:

                  • Sally

                  LM4:

                  • Jimmy

                  LM5:

                  • PJ

                  LM6:

                  • Bobby

                  LM7:

                  • Kelly

                  LM8:

                  • Mary

                  LM9:

                  • Jane

                  LM10:

                  • Watson

                  Now our 10 voters come into the voting booth, and they see the list of options:

                  • National
                  • Labour
                  • LM1
                  • LM2
                  • LM3
                  • LM4
                  • LM5
                  • LM6
                  • LM7
                  • LM8
                  • LM9
                  • LM10

                  5 voters want to vote for National, so they only vote for National. They are all against legalising marijuana and don’t like Labour’s policies so they don’t vote for anyone else.

                  4 voters want to vote for Labour, so they do. They are also all against legalising marijuana and don’t like National’s policies so they don’t vote for anyone else.

                  1 voter wants to vote for the Legalise Marijuana party. The party has told them how they can vote for all 10 of their subsidiaries, so they do this.

                  Now we add up the votes.

                  5 for National 4 for Labour 10 for Legalise Marijuana subsidiary parties

                  The Legalise Marijuana party now has 52% of the seats and so can pass their law, but only 1 out of 10 voters actually voted for them.

                  You say this is fair because they all had the same number of potential votes. I say it’s unfair because 10% of votes got 52% of seats.

                  • @BalpeenHammer
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                    01 year ago

                    The Legalise Marijuana party now has 52% of the seats and so can pass their law, but only 1 out of 10 voters actually voted for them.

                    How do you figure that?

                    The party itself only has one vote.

                    In your example the votes are tallied. There are five votes for national, they get the most votes and they are allocated five seats. labour has four votes and they are allocated four seats. All other parties have one vote and a tie break is needed to determine who gets the last seat.

                    It’s not like you get to add the votes of the other parties together.

    • @[email protected]
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      11 year ago

      The sheets are already ordered randomly when printed - you’re arguing about t something that’s already solved

      (or so I’m told! I haven’t actually compared yep voting ballots beside each other, but I understand this is already the status quo)

      Personally, I’m opposed to the idea of ticking someone I only kind of like that’s in a major party, likely to get many votes - I like that with STV, the ranking is very clear

      • @DaveMA
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        1 year ago

        Edit: Replied to wrong comment…