I believe their ideology needs to be exposed for what it truly is, and we should fight them peacefully by educating the next generation about their atrocities.
They believe I should burn in hellfire for an eternity, converted to their ways, or killed in hate crimes. They believe my livelihood should end, our business should be violently burned and destroyed, and I should be the victim of humanitarian atrocities until I convert or die of suicide.
If there is no difference in that, then there is no difference in any war or ideological conflicts.
Were the allies wrong for seeking peaceful alternatives and, finally, declaring war on the Nazis? Is Ukraine wrong for defending its existence against Russia? Were the first secular academics wrong for insisting on their right to teach and pursue science when the justice system of the time was literally burning a few of them at the stake, and socially outcasting and tormenting the rest of them? Was the United States wrong in defending the right of universal freedom against the threat of the Confederate States?
There is a difference… We fight with truth, we assert our right to exist by peaceful means and, if it comes to it, self-defense.
They fight with hate, doctrine, abuse and hellfire. They fight for removal of our right to peacefully exist and be accepted. They ensure the next generation of dogmatic oppressors by teaching in the culture and the schools, normalizing the quiet abuse of any of their children who refuse conform to it. I know first hand. I was one of those children.
You don’t know Christianity, you only know the ways in which horrible people have misused it to hurt you, and because of that you’ve let yourself become as wicked as them.
That is sad, but one day you will heal and your heart will know peace. I know I was in the same boat.
I’m still not a Christian, but I don’t hold disdain for them anymore.
that’s a no true scotsman. Christianity is not an ideal, its whatever people who call themselves Christians do. and in the US, evangelical Christianity is the core of the republican party, the most likely to be anti-vaxxers, the most likely to be bigots, the most likely to interfere with other people’s rights. the belief system the people trying to drag us back to the middle ages hold to is absolutely relevant to understanding why they hate queer people, immigrants, poor people, homeless people, black people, jewish people, muslim people, asian people, women, and themselves.
i don’t know what you get out of telling people who have been repeatedly and consistently victimized by people and governments that call themselves Christian that they do not know what Christianity is, that they are wrong for seeing the institution that treats them like shit as something to be dismantled. the harm being done by self-professed Christians to marginalized people is real and getting worse, and forgiving somebody when they have not changed their behavior is just enabling them to continue doing harm.
Are you just yelling out random fallacies until you find one that comes close to describing my argument? I remember when I used to think that’s how debating works, damn high school was wild.
I’m not saying to forgive people who use Christianity as an excuse to bully others, I’m saying not to blame the faith itself for the actions of jackasses, and to recognize that by calling for the complete extermination of the faith and everyone involved in it, you’re acting like a literal Nazi.
I’m not telling marginalized people that their pain doesn’t matter, I’m telling them that hatred will not heal their wounds and in fact make them worse. I know because I used to blame the existence of religion for all that was wrong in the world, but then I grew up and realized it’s not so simple.
Are you just yelling out random fallacies until you find one that comes close to describing my argument?
come on, i said one fallacy. the no true scotsman fallacy, which is often used to deflect from bad behavior in Christian communities. there is no “misusing” Christianity. the things that Christians are and do is what Christianity is. the fact that corporal punishment, restrictive gender roles, misogyny, homophobia, and bigotry are more prevalent in Christian subcultures is observable, and it is linked to the belief system these people follow. the harm being done by Christians to marginalized people is ongoing. the opportunity to “heal” is precluded by the fresh wounds being made at the direction of Christian lawmakers.
asking people to set aside their anger at the present and growing danger that christian nationalism poses to their lives and livelihoods is telling marginalized people that their pain doesn’t matter, or at least, that the way they respond to that harm is incorrect.
I’m telling them that hatred will not heal their wounds and in fact make them worse
the wounds are getting worse, healing or not. Christian subcultures continue to pursue right-wing agendas at the expense of marginalized people, and i think its justifiable that the people being targeted by that kind of abuse would be angry at the belief system that legitimizes and supports that kind of harm.
in any case, Christians often make appeals to “forgiveness”, both internally towards abusers within their communities and externally towards people who express criticisms of the faith, but forgiveness is only a virtue to other Christians. people are not obligated to forgive those who have wronged them, especially if they haven’t stopped. not forgiving isn’t a sin, its a choice, and in some scenarios its the best choice a person can make. this appeal to forgiveness as a moral good is itself one of the many problems with the Christian worldview. its not uncommon for patriarchal figures in Christian cultures who abuse vulnerable people to expect forgiveness from their community, or demand it from their victims.
I know because I used to blame the existence of religion for all that was wrong in the world, but then I grew up and realized it’s not so simple.
it isn’t so simple, yes, but deflecting blame away from the institution itself and to the individual people living in it is no better. Christianity, and religion, is not all that is wrong in the world, but it is some of it, especially if you aren’t a straight white man. the fact that you aren’t very willing to allow Christianity as a concept to be tied to the behaviors of the people who worship it, and the way you seem certain that despising people who have demonstrated over and over again that they are wiling to hurt you for their god is wrong, kinda gives me Christian vibes, even if you say you aren’t one yourself.
Those ‘horrible people’ were all Christians lol. Have you read that awful book they love so much?
Dashing babies’ heads against rocks is great! Slaves are a-okay! Give your daughters to a mob to be raped so your guests aren’t bothered! Oh, and genocide is awesome too.
It’s a terrible religion that somehow occasionally makes decent people. Jesus had some good ideas, but they do their best to ignore as many of them as they can.
Because you cherry picking the worst parts and ignoring historical context and allegory is totally different from when fundies cherry picking the worst parts and ignoring historical context and allegory.
Intolerance of… a hateful belief that most of them choose. And one that the one’s who don’t choose (children) are forced into?
That intolerance?
idk seems like it’d be fine to be intolerant of hate
The very founders of the Catholic church corrupted that goal.
The people who truly do care about others are amazing, but that is not the majority of Christians, especially when it comes to how they feel about queer people. That is what I mean when I say Christianity.
I apologize for not making that clearer I was on a time crunch /gen
If that is what Christianity actually brought to the world, then we wouldn’t be in this position. They pay lip service to it. Nothing more. Fuck them all.
if that’s the core concept, how do you explain how Christianity has functioned in practice throughout most of human history? mass indigenous graves, inquisitions, the treatment of religious minorities, the many justifications of slavery, the christian nationalist far-right, the open rejection of queer identities, conversion therapy camps, treating women as property, raping children? nothing about the christian ethos in practice leads to good outcomes for people who aren’t Christian, and not for the people who are, either.
“perversion” isn’t a thing. things are what they are observed to be, and for many queer people, christian institutions have been observed to be openly hostile to their existence. contend with the fact that there are many people who have never seen the Christianity you seem to think exists.
You talk about Christians the same way the Far Right talks about trans people.
If you don’t realize that, that’s sad If you do realize that, you’re no different from the fascists and should be ashamed of yourself.
I believe their ideology needs to be exposed for what it truly is, and we should fight them peacefully by educating the next generation about their atrocities.
They believe I should burn in hellfire for an eternity, converted to their ways, or killed in hate crimes. They believe my livelihood should end, our business should be violently burned and destroyed, and I should be the victim of humanitarian atrocities until I convert or die of suicide.
If there is no difference in that, then there is no difference in any war or ideological conflicts.
Were the allies wrong for seeking peaceful alternatives and, finally, declaring war on the Nazis? Is Ukraine wrong for defending its existence against Russia? Were the first secular academics wrong for insisting on their right to teach and pursue science when the justice system of the time was literally burning a few of them at the stake, and socially outcasting and tormenting the rest of them? Was the United States wrong in defending the right of universal freedom against the threat of the Confederate States?
There is a difference… We fight with truth, we assert our right to exist by peaceful means and, if it comes to it, self-defense.
They fight with hate, doctrine, abuse and hellfire. They fight for removal of our right to peacefully exist and be accepted. They ensure the next generation of dogmatic oppressors by teaching in the culture and the schools, normalizing the quiet abuse of any of their children who refuse conform to it. I know first hand. I was one of those children.
You don’t know Christianity, you only know the ways in which horrible people have misused it to hurt you, and because of that you’ve let yourself become as wicked as them.
That is sad, but one day you will heal and your heart will know peace. I know I was in the same boat. I’m still not a Christian, but I don’t hold disdain for them anymore.
that’s a no true scotsman. Christianity is not an ideal, its whatever people who call themselves Christians do. and in the US, evangelical Christianity is the core of the republican party, the most likely to be anti-vaxxers, the most likely to be bigots, the most likely to interfere with other people’s rights. the belief system the people trying to drag us back to the middle ages hold to is absolutely relevant to understanding why they hate queer people, immigrants, poor people, homeless people, black people, jewish people, muslim people, asian people, women, and themselves.
i don’t know what you get out of telling people who have been repeatedly and consistently victimized by people and governments that call themselves Christian that they do not know what Christianity is, that they are wrong for seeing the institution that treats them like shit as something to be dismantled. the harm being done by self-professed Christians to marginalized people is real and getting worse, and forgiving somebody when they have not changed their behavior is just enabling them to continue doing harm.
Are you just yelling out random fallacies until you find one that comes close to describing my argument? I remember when I used to think that’s how debating works, damn high school was wild.
I’m not saying to forgive people who use Christianity as an excuse to bully others, I’m saying not to blame the faith itself for the actions of jackasses, and to recognize that by calling for the complete extermination of the faith and everyone involved in it, you’re acting like a literal Nazi.
I’m not telling marginalized people that their pain doesn’t matter, I’m telling them that hatred will not heal their wounds and in fact make them worse. I know because I used to blame the existence of religion for all that was wrong in the world, but then I grew up and realized it’s not so simple.
Well said! You and I are incredibly similar.
come on, i said one fallacy. the no true scotsman fallacy, which is often used to deflect from bad behavior in Christian communities. there is no “misusing” Christianity. the things that Christians are and do is what Christianity is. the fact that corporal punishment, restrictive gender roles, misogyny, homophobia, and bigotry are more prevalent in Christian subcultures is observable, and it is linked to the belief system these people follow. the harm being done by Christians to marginalized people is ongoing. the opportunity to “heal” is precluded by the fresh wounds being made at the direction of Christian lawmakers.
asking people to set aside their anger at the present and growing danger that christian nationalism poses to their lives and livelihoods is telling marginalized people that their pain doesn’t matter, or at least, that the way they respond to that harm is incorrect.
the wounds are getting worse, healing or not. Christian subcultures continue to pursue right-wing agendas at the expense of marginalized people, and i think its justifiable that the people being targeted by that kind of abuse would be angry at the belief system that legitimizes and supports that kind of harm.
in any case, Christians often make appeals to “forgiveness”, both internally towards abusers within their communities and externally towards people who express criticisms of the faith, but forgiveness is only a virtue to other Christians. people are not obligated to forgive those who have wronged them, especially if they haven’t stopped. not forgiving isn’t a sin, its a choice, and in some scenarios its the best choice a person can make. this appeal to forgiveness as a moral good is itself one of the many problems with the Christian worldview. its not uncommon for patriarchal figures in Christian cultures who abuse vulnerable people to expect forgiveness from their community, or demand it from their victims.
it isn’t so simple, yes, but deflecting blame away from the institution itself and to the individual people living in it is no better. Christianity, and religion, is not all that is wrong in the world, but it is some of it, especially if you aren’t a straight white man. the fact that you aren’t very willing to allow Christianity as a concept to be tied to the behaviors of the people who worship it, and the way you seem certain that despising people who have demonstrated over and over again that they are wiling to hurt you for their god is wrong, kinda gives me Christian vibes, even if you say you aren’t one yourself.
Those ‘horrible people’ were all Christians lol. Have you read that awful book they love so much?
Dashing babies’ heads against rocks is great! Slaves are a-okay! Give your daughters to a mob to be raped so your guests aren’t bothered! Oh, and genocide is awesome too.
It’s a terrible religion that somehow occasionally makes decent people. Jesus had some good ideas, but they do their best to ignore as many of them as they can.
Because you cherry picking the worst parts and ignoring historical context and allegory is totally different from when fundies cherry picking the worst parts and ignoring historical context and allegory.
Oh good lord, here come the False Equivalency Patrol 🤦
Naw, this is correct equivilance. Intolerance cannot be tolerated
Intolerance of… a hateful belief that most of them choose. And one that the one’s who don’t choose (children) are forced into? That intolerance? idk seems like it’d be fine to be intolerant of hate
My friend, the core concept of Christianity is to do charitable actions in the name of Christ, how is that hateful?
Have some horrible people perverted that core concept to justify horrible things? Yes, but I can say the same about literally any ideology.
The very founders of the Catholic church corrupted that goal.
The people who truly do care about others are amazing, but that is not the majority of Christians, especially when it comes to how they feel about queer people. That is what I mean when I say Christianity.
I apologize for not making that clearer I was on a time crunch /gen
Bro, do you even know what a Catholic is?
I was raised Catholic lol
If that is what Christianity actually brought to the world, then we wouldn’t be in this position. They pay lip service to it. Nothing more. Fuck them all.
if that’s the core concept, how do you explain how Christianity has functioned in practice throughout most of human history? mass indigenous graves, inquisitions, the treatment of religious minorities, the many justifications of slavery, the christian nationalist far-right, the open rejection of queer identities, conversion therapy camps, treating women as property, raping children? nothing about the christian ethos in practice leads to good outcomes for people who aren’t Christian, and not for the people who are, either.
“perversion” isn’t a thing. things are what they are observed to be, and for many queer people, christian institutions have been observed to be openly hostile to their existence. contend with the fact that there are many people who have never seen the Christianity you seem to think exists.