Isn’t this the problem with every Democratic president? Where the policies proposed have upwards of 70% approval, but once it’s mentioned that the person has a scary D next to their name, it immediately drops 30%?
Also, 57% have a negative opinion of Biden, and yet only 58% have a negative opinion of Trump? If that polling is accurate, what an absolutely fucked country we are.
I think a lot of it is also “national mood”. The world is a bummer right now and people feel fed up. For a lot of voters, including sadly many on the left, “vibes” are more important than facts.
It’s less that things are a bummer now, but that we have no idea what “better” even looks like. Instead of schlepping to the office in a gas car we schlep in an electric car? Instead of going bankrupt buying a fancy chemo treatment we go bankrupt buying a fancy mRNA treatment? Instead of conflict in the middle east we’ll have conflict in the middle east? Is this what I have to look forward to for the rest of my entire life?
One thing conservatives have an advantage on is vision. Everybody remembers the past. A lot of people remember it fondly. It’s easy to sell something like that. It’s why they use it to sell everything.
That’s why we call them out for the fiction they call the past. It never existed the way they paint it.
Of course it didn’t exist. It’s a cultural hallucination created by the Hayes Code. But that doesn’t stop it from being incredibly effective marketing.
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many people have plenty ideas of what " better" looks like throughout the left side of the spectrum. anarchists socialists and communists would like a word.
centrists are the one stuck with a failed system they refuse to try and change meaningfully other than voting and toothless forms of protest.
This. Just like every time there is a Democrat in office, we get economic dooming before the election regardless of what the actual numbers say.
Nah.
This is also actual progressives who didn’t believe his platform last time, and have even less trust in him this time.
Like, I have a negative opinion of Biden. I think he’s lied a lot to get elected, he went from saying only he could get Republican Senate votes for the Democratic platform, to acting like people were crazy for thinking he could talk Democratic senators into voting for the Dem platform.
I see absolutely no reason we’re running him again. We’re risking trump again by running an elderly unpopular candidate like we did in 2016.
But he’s a hell of a lot better than trump, so I’m pretty much forced to vote for him.
When the only reason people have to vote for someone is so the other guy doesn’t win, voter turnout will be down.
Positive reinforcement is always better than potential negative reinforcement.
When the only reason people have to vote for someone is so the other guy doesn’t win, voter turnout will be down.
Turnout in 2020 was the highest in years, decades even, so this isn’t true at all. People showed up mainly to vote against Trump. I was one of them.
Probably because of the pandemic, so they had nothing else to do.
You don’t see why the Democrats are running him again? Really?
No democrat can beat him in a primary and the closest person capable is basically a pinko who is treated with more respect by trump voters than typical Democrats.
basically a pinko who is treated with more respect by trump voters than typical Democrats.
Weird way to say progressive politicians are popular with more than moderates…
I mean, isn’t the whole “moderate” thing supposed to be to appeal to republicans?
But it’s a bad thing if a progressive can get republicans to vote D?
But it’s a bad thing if a progressive can get republicans to vote D?
Not a bad thing, just nearly impossible. Republican voters have had the last 20-years of Faux “News” equating Democrats to traitors and baby killers. They’ve tarnished the idea that compromise is required to have a functioning democracy, and their side is always right. Republicans will primary another candidate before they accept or work with Democrats.
Not a bad thing, just nearly impossible
So the moderates immediately giving up what voters want and claiming it’s because they can compromise…
That’s bullshit?
There’s no reason for the democratic party to not be as progressive as voters want them to be?
Do you think moderate politicians are too stupid to know that? Or do you think they’re lying to voters to get elected?
I think our two party system is two sides of the same coin. One is just better at doing the bare minimum to appease the masses. They’re both right of center in terms of politics.
I feel like you may have taken my comment the wrong way. I was agreeing with you and adding personal observations of friends and family and their polarization based on the rhetoric spewed by Fox News. There’s a reason Democrats don’t get primaried by their own party for collaborating with Republicans. The opposite is not the same.
It’s really hard to get through to these people after years of hearing, “liberals want to eat your babies,” and some such shit. I’ve tried. The idea that progressives want what they want, but actually govern toward those goals when elected, is what is hard to convey when one side sticks their fingers in their ears and yells, “LA LA LA LA LA, SOCIALIST.”
I’m definitely not saying to give up, but moderates are just closeted Republicans that want an “out” whenever the Republican caucus starts shouting fascistic rhetoric. Getting these people out of their echo chambers will take generations if we still have a society by then.
I think he’s lied a lot to get elected, he went from saying only he could get Republican Senate votes for the Democratic platform, to acting like people were crazy for thinking he could talk Democratic senators into voting for the Dem platform.
I don’t recall him saying either of these things. Do you mind pointing me to some speeches or states that support this claim?
Positive reinforcement is always better than potential negative reinforcement.
Not if you’ve experienced the potential negative. And I think there’s actually a psychological basis to this. The best example of this is food that’s a little past the expiry date. The only reason to not eat it is because I could get sick. If I’ve been fine so far, I’ll just eat it without a worry. But if I end up with painful stomach cramps and nausea and I’m running to the bathroom constantly, the next time I’m faced with the dilemma, I’m just throwing the food in the trash.
Psychologically I think our lizard brain creates a negative association. If we eat something that makes us sick, we aren’t going to be eager to eat it again in the future because of our negative experience. That’s why I’ll still occasionally gag if I have a drink with whiskey.
Not if you’ve experienced the potential negative
Nope, still is.
It’s basically psychology. Might not be taught in highschool, but it’s incredibly basic.
Not just humans either, it’s how all mammals are, that’s how basic it is.
Hmmm, I might be confusing two different things then. It’s been a hot minute since I took a psych intro in college
Yeah, theres some good studies on it you can look up if you want. But I was dumb enough to major in psych in college and they can still be a bit wordy for me.
Think about a slot machine. People will dump thousands of dollars into one a night for the brief dopamine of a single $200 win.
Meanwhile everyone going 10 mph over the speed limit keep doing it despite knowing at any minute they may get a speeding ticket.
Even if the negative is consistent after a certain threshold, all that does is get the bare minimum to avoid it.
What is surprising is a random positive reward is better at motivating than a consistent one. To take it back to slot machines, if everytime you put in a dollar you got a dime, no one would ever play. Even if the result is the same at the end of the day, the randomness makes our brain want to keep trying.
Agreed. Our brain keeps thinking “the next one could be it”.
I think I see what you’re saying about speeding. Negative reinforcement can influence behavior, but it’ll go as far as to avoid the negative, no further. You won’t get a compulsion like you do with random rewards. I see your point.
It would help Dems tremendously if there was any follow through on campaign promises. Immediately giving voters the cold shoulder in order to further the corporate agenda after getting into office leaves a bad taste in voters’ mouths.
The mainstream media has really been harping on Biden’s age lately. But they often forget to mention that the reason age is important is that it’s an indicator of health and mental acuity. Trump is almost as old, but if you ignore age and directly compare Biden and Trump on the actual important factors, health and mental acuity, Biden comes out far ahead.
If the choice actually comes down to Biden or Trump, and if you were only basing your vote on their health today, you’d be an idiot to vote for Trump. That would be on top of all of the other, much more important reasons to prefer Biden to Trump. Like they say in the article, Biden’s agenda is popular. And on the other hand, Trump is a fascist fraudster sexually abusive criminal who already came within inches of overthrowing our government.
The question is. People want neither, as they’re both, very, very, very old
The problem is that the real choice in 2024 will be to vote for whoever the Democratic candidate is, whether it’s Biden or not, or you can vote for whoever the Republican candidate will be.
But among the Republican candidates, only Chris Christie is willing to tell the truth about January 6. Politically, I don’t agree with Christie, but he’s literally the only Republican candidate who is not actively trying to destroy our country. But if you think age is an important factor, and the GOP comes to its senses and doesn’t nominate Trump, in all likelihood, you’ll end up with somebody who is actively trying to destroy our country.
It’s a fucking disaster. On top of that, look at Ronald Reagan. He started having memory problems during his second term, and publicly he did fine, because he surrounded himself with people who would cover for him. If Biden starts having problems, we can decide what to do at that point.
Do I think age should be an important factor in elections? Yes. But it can’t be a factor in 2024 because it will throw us all over a cliff.
I’m definitely more of a progressive than a democrat and I may not like Biden much, but I’ll sure as shit vote for him to prevent another Trump term. I feel like the media is trying to create a crisis here.
Not just the media but also… Am I the only one frustrated by the amount of “voting for Biden is dumb” posts on Lemmy? Yeah, he sucks, I don’t like him. He’s basically a 1950s Republican from back when they at least pretended to have some standards and acted like the government could occasionally do things. That’s not inspiring.
But what’s the play here? Don’t vote at all? Vote for Trump but ironically? I don’t get it. Voting is NOT the only thing you can do, and it’s not the only thing you SHOULD be doing, but it’s still a thing you absolutely should do.
I may not like Biden much, but I’ll sure as shit vote for him to prevent another Trump term.
That may work for us, but we absolutely need to get some people excited and motivated, or they’ll just stay home, handing the election to Trump…
Oh no, there is a crisis.
It’s an incredibly idiotic one. But it exists.
The problem here is you are voting because you are afraid of a Trump second term rather than voting for a candidate that is qualified for the position.
If you are more of an independent and look at a crazy person on one side and a senile sun downing person on the other the choice is more of a 50 50.
The Democrats are playing with fire and doing undemocratic plays to keep viable candidates out of the race and hide a compromised Biden instead of having an open primary and that might cost all of regardless of who actually wins.
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I’m not playing down the seriousness of Trump’s actions. I’m just making the case that even with Trump on trial right now he’s leading in polls because Biden is so out of touch with what the base needs right now. It’s so bad that other prominent Democrats are calling out their own party and asking Biden to step down because they see it’s a liability.
My point is independents see both parties and candidates and the party in power are making it so Biden, who is unpopular, is the default to the point they are taking away Iowa’s first super Tuesday as a primary state.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/01/us/politics/biden-dnc-primary-south-carolina-2024.html
The reason why is they don’t want any potential primary candidate to work up the ranks, which is undemocratic.
Whoa, wait, you mean Trump in in touch with what the everyday joe needs?
That’s a deeper question and not what I was talking about but as a fake populist? Yeah, in the eyes of his base. He’s really good at messaging and straight up lying about being pro worker and for the people.
I feel the current administration has done tangible things policy wise to help people but the Democrats don’t know how to take a victory lap when they accomplish these achievements.
I think the general population, indicated by recent polls, think Biden is too old and not up to do a second term. They want anybody else to run against Trump.
the issue is you are thinking I’m cheerleading Trump and that’s not my intention. Im pointing out that there is voting block that is ready to sit out over the lack of enthusiasm for Biden and hatred for the political institutions that haven’t helped the average voter over the years.
It’s how Trump got elected in the first place.
Okay but the other side is a senile sundowning crazy person. We act like Biden is so much older than Trump but it’s only three years.
Anyone ever see the orange Mussolini on a bicycle?
Oh for sure. Trump is high as balls on uppers and a cocktail of meds to have him bounce off the wall at rallys, I just wish Trump would let Biden take a hit off of whatever he’s using.
I think it’s about optics and looking at Biden on stage wandering around and falling down stairs/over his own words vs Trump who’s shitting on all of his opponents and captivating his base it’s resonating with a base that’s fed up.
I think Biden policy wise is a lot better than any president we have had in recent memory (chips act, leaving Afghanistan, covid relief, cares act, TRYING to get student debt relief) but the general population in today’s age needs to have a politician message to them what their party is actually doing for them and Biden and his admin of fail on that level so often.
Thanks for pointing out Biden’s record. He has been able to get a lot accomplished and I hate always seeing the fascist’s messaging has permeated so deeply that everyone calls Biden senile…
He is senile. That doesn’t mean I don’t like his administrations policies and that doesn’t take away that he has done more for a progressive agenda than what was expected.
He’s on the same path as Regan was with his age, the difference is social media wasn’t a thing so they could hide Regan easier.
The problem as stated are the same sorts of sentiments that lost Hillary, and won Trump, the 2016 election.
Also, as an independent myself, I take issue at the implication that “insurectionist” vs “old man screaming at clouds” is at all a 50/50 choice
I think it’s already a disservice that we’re allowing this to be the narrative. Biden is certainly no spring chicken, but he’s nowhere close to “sun-downing” or “old man screaming at clouds” and this narrative only works because republicans are better at messaging by a mile, and Biden has and has had a stutter his entire life.
And though he’s no where near progressive enough for my tastes, he’s probably got the most progressive record of just about any modern president.
Tbh if we want to get somewhere, we’d stop letting Republican talking points turn into the framing for everyone else. The topic of Biden’s age now dominates any discussion about him on either side, as if Trump isn’t basically the same age, and actually frequently showing more and more real signs of senility, never mind the whole “criminal, rapist, insurrectionist, traitor using state secrets to curry favor.”
Hiliary’s loss can be chalked up to similar reasons, of course tossing in a hefty, heft dose of misogyny. We let RBF and “but her emails” turn into this mess.
Like, why are we doing far right republican’s messaging for them?
Well I’m not an independent and I completely disagree that the choice is 50/50. I have seen what Trump did to this country and I believe it is vital that we do not allow him to have a second term. There are plenty of issues with Biden but they pale in comparison to what Trump will do if re-elected. You are damn right I’m afraid of a second term with him. He almost destroyed our democracy during his first term. Just look at the shit he is outright saying he will do if re-elected.
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Sorry I prefer a senile person to a political strongman
I hope others feel the same as you but I’ve lost faith in the electorial college and the two parties a long time ago.
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It’s really not that close though, when the crazy person has such a history of fraud and corruption, is such a danger to our country, our society, has been so dividing, whose policies are responsible for so many pandemic deaths, so beholden to corporate interests and foreign dictators, etc. His approach to governing is a three year old throwing a tantrum and smashing Lego sets
I dont know why Biden gets so much hate. He has been a fantastic president so far. Could he have done more? Sure, but I dont understand why the hate. They say “hold my nose” to vote for him… like wtf why?
Yeah I’m right there with you. Biden has accomplished a lot. I don’t agree with everything he’s said or done but as a whole he’s done a fantastic job turning America around. If he can beat Trump once he can beat him again and that is paramount. Plus it gives dems another 4 years to start pushing younger more progressive candidates into the spotlight.
Don’t forget Trump is dragging the Republican party down, big time. - he will destroy the country. He has allowed those who are enemies of the constitution to come out of the closet and attack democracy.
Biden on the other hand, has surprised us by being more progressive than we thought he would be. He may not be physically agile but he knows good policy, like forgiving student loans for example, and he knows how to get legislation passed.deleted by creator
What if the GOP replaces Trump? There are a lot of ways he could become unelectable in the next year. So how would Biden do against a fresh Republican candidate? (My guess is Biden could lose if he doesn’t have the “anyone but Trump” vote, so I hope the Dems have a fresh candidate of their own ready to take up the torch soon.)
GOP is locked in. Their base won’t accept anyone else.
I think the GOP has rolled out it’s freshest candidates and they are running now.
They won’t bring in a new candidate, if Trump can’t run he will cut a deal with Desantis and back him under an arrangement that Desantis pardons Trumps charges. Desantis is not a platform that will help the American people.
A lot of people don’t understand how hard it is to fix things with a hostile Supreme Court and an obstructive congress. To the people saying “both sides are the same because Biden has only managed to clean up a few of Trump’s messes”, how would you do it instead? Biden has decades of experience, and he’s trying. Do you honestly believe someone else could do better?
Because he’s not charismatic.
People like to point to his earlier career not aging well to current social / political norms, completely ignoring that adapting one’s values as society evolves is a desirable trait.
But really, it comes down to charisma. He’s awkward and not particularly likeable, and people will bend over backwards to justify their dislike of him despite his accomplishments.
Then there are the hardline progressives, who literally no one electable will ever please. I’m sure even Bernie would have had to make too many compromises ,or fail to deliver enough, to alienate these folks if he had taken the presidency.
If Bernie got elected hard-line progressives would be throwing themselves off their roofs onto the grass outside their mothers houses for how little he’s done and how all politicians are the same lol.
Axelrod and a bunch of the ‘conservative’ left really, really dislike Kamala and fear her as a president.
Because he’s just there to maintain the status quo in a system that’s been pushed to the brink and is no longer providing for the people participating in said system.
Also he’s so, so fucking old.
We someone to bring about a ton of meaningful change, and fast. Biden isn’t the one to do it.
We someone to bring about a ton of meaningful change, and fast. Biden isn’t the one to do it.
Our system is not designed to do this. So really no one is, unless we are going to throw the whole system out.
He’s not been perfect, of course, but he’s been pretty good. And more importantly because he has a ton of experience and connections, he’s been pretty effective. Again, all within the system we have.
So unless we are going to throw the whole system out, it’s hard to say you are going to get a more effective candidate than Biden.
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Why do you think the left is becoming radicalized?
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I’d really like for the Democrats to stop trying to make Biden appear young. Yeah, I would like a younger president, yeah I like that Biden can ride a bike or go for a walk, but these don’t make him look younger to me and I didn’t vote for him because I thought he was younger and super fit.
I wish the Biden team would lean into the memes, I feel like that’s when he’s been most popular. Appropriating the Let’s go Brandon memes, appropriating the “I did that stickers/meme,” leaning into the Dark/Dank Brandon memes, and back when he was VP leaning into the Uncle Joe vibe.
Fucking embrace that the dude is old and make him America’s great grandpa. Have him walk out onto a Mr. Rogers lookalike set in a red cardigan to talk about policy. Have him do a fireside address with a blanket and a coffee. Have him throw on the sunglasses and crack the goofy smile before going to get ice cream with a podcaster.
Hell, get the people who made this video to help on Biden’s public image.
You’re right. He’s not young. But he’s still a better President than I expected and he’s far, far better than any alternative that Republicans will nominate. So can we let go of the age thing for now until we have an opportunity to pick better candidates? I sincerely doubt this election cycle will be it.
Oh I totally agree. I guess the rest of my comment was about how they’re trying to make it an age thing and it’s the worst marketing for him.
Exactly. When the other side is literal fascists I will, begrudgingly, vote for whoever the non-fascist is.
“shut up or my guy might lose”
No. It’s a valid criticism. I don’t think I should have to set my concerns aside so the chosen moderate can stall progress for the next 4 years.
So you’d rather watch the world burn than accept progress that’s slower than you demand. How noble.
No, it’s not slower, it’s actively progressing the wrong direction. And having a president that’s happy to stall progress is tantamount to giving the GOP what they want next cycle.
I’m tired of ‘Democrats’ pussyfutting around for 4-8 years only to watch what little they accomplished undone immediately, and the GOP making massive gains towards a fascist agenda no one wants.
Give me a candidate with teeth or yes, watch it all burn down. Get the horror show over with. Anything less than relentless progress is a win for the party that’s willing to fight dirty for their bullshit agenda.
Really. This is the wrong direction?
What color is the sky on your world? It’s usually blue on mine.
How much of that is executive order that can be undone day one for the next president?
How much of that is wrapped up in a single spending bill?
How much of that is limited in scope when we need large scale change? Protecting a forest with an EO is peanuts on the scale of action we actually need
Fine. You show us how it’s done. Tell us how we pass good legislation in light of a hostile House of Representatives.
Go on. We’ll wait.
I’m pretty sure he selected Kamala specifically for the “well what if he dies” crowd.
The Biden HQ x formerly known as twitter account does lean into the memes pretty good. Even made an account on truth social.
Oh yeah? Well I love Joe Biden, and I’m not ashamed to say it. Let’s talk about the last two administrations:
Joe Biden tried to forgive my debt. Donald Trump tried to take away my health insurance. Joe Biden thinks we need more trains. Donald Trump thinks we need more walls. Joe Biden lowered my student loan bills. Donald Trump raised my taxes. Joe Biden released people who were convicted on marijuana charges. Donald Trump locked up children for coming to the US. Joe Biden wants to be president. Donald Trump wants to be Vladimir Putin. Joe Biden told me to join a union. Donald Trump told me to drink bleach.
Is the Biden administration perfect? Of course not, but the man has actually tried (and occasionally succeeded) to do things that would actually benefit me personally. https://www.whitehouse.gov/therecord/
The reality is that for most people on most days, what’s happening in DC has only a very small impact on our lives. Our state and local governments are vastly more consequential. But this administration, despite being faced with an opposition party composed of literal fascists, is fighting tooth and nail to make life better for real people without losing the Republic in the process. Given the current state of SCOTUS and Congress, it’s nothing short of a miracle Joe Biden has accomplished anything at all. He’s not as far left as me, but he’s as far left as we’ve got right now, and never mind the fact that the other guy wants to destroy our country so he can stay out of prison.
Joe Biden has conviction, he has compassion, and he has ability. I like the agenda, and I like the man.
Joe Biden is defending democracy.
Donald Trump wants a theocratic autocracy.
It really is that simple.
Everyone please vote in 2024 to prevent project 2025.
Joe Biden doesn’t have the Progressive agenda I prefer, but he’s been the Moderate we need.
Even when I disagree with his approach, I usually have the impression that he acknowledges reality and at least considers knowledgeable advice
Republicans’ dilemma: We will vote for Biden over literally any Republican so it doesn’t matter.
Most Americans will vote Biden over Trump, but those same people would vote for any moderate Republican over Biden.
Republicans are attached at the hip to Trump and thus is actually best for the Democrats if Trump stays out of prison for the next year and keeps running for office.
It’s just fine if he runs from prison as well.
I never thought I’d be one of those people who votes party lines, but at least at the national level, there just doesn’t seem to be a Republican that’s not just despicable
Biden is fine as president but I find it hard that a octogenarian can possibly understand the realities of my life and that’s the problem, the largest voting block isn’t old people anymore and democrats need to pivot for that. I’ll still vote for the old bastard.
I mean, even if he was 40 he wouldn’t understand your life. He belongs to a more rarified political class than we plebs.
It’s closer then Trumps life, things need to change and politicians are not gonna change it because it means radical financial changes in politics which they all love so I don’t really know. I would love to run for the house in my state but the minimum is 100000 just to get on the ballot. The lowest class will never be able to compete
Imma vote for that Brandon guy.
Do you think they will add “Dark Brandon” write-ins to Biden’s tally?
@rbhfd @eran_morad they better or im gonna be peeved lol
I’m not a huge fan of Biden for multiple reasons, and I’d often show up in the “disapproval” stats for him as a person. I’d prefer to vote for Newsom or Fetterman. But I’ll vote for Biden any day of the week over any Republican if he’s the eventual Democratic nominee.
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Weed for sure, prostitution I think you underestimate just how puritanical this country is.
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Slipping, but in the wise words of someone much smarter, “you all aren’t ready for that, but your kids are going to love it.”
I mean, the agenda is mostly common sense and not making things worse so… Just get someone else and keep trucking?
hold your nose and vote for the lesser evil of two ancient, conservative candidates.
yay america… just ooozing with democracy
Vote for fascist; no more democracy until civil war or total collapse.
Vote for not-fascist; no democracy/choice until the fascist party change their platform.
It’s reductive but it’s also why a two party system is anti-democratic. You can’t vote properly if you dont have a choice.
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That sounds very authoritarian.
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At last, the right have found the straw man they’ve been pretending the left wants all along. Kind of you to validate them.
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Right. Becoming what you claim to oppose doesn’t hurt your credibility at all.
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You have a desperately broken view of history. Please seek help. Urgently.
