• nothingcorporate@lemmy.todayOP
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    1 year ago

    As The Intercept pointed out this week, this is Israel’s 9/11 in that it is a horrific event they didn’t see coming, but when you stop to look at the powder keg they created, they absolutely should have.

    • eric@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      And just like 9/11, they were warned of the attack weeks in advance but were still woefully unprepared to protect their citizens.

      • Alteon@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        I’m worried that they DID know, and are using this as an excuse to further their agenda against Palestinians.

            • Cocodapuf@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              Well, it really did work in the US. This is literally what happened at Pearl Harbor.

              Roosevelt knew the attack was coming, very much so, our intelligence was good. But he needed the attack to happen, so he let it happen.

              At the time, Europe was at war and our allies desperately needed help, but the US had been dragging it’s heels about getting involved for years. Roosevelt wanted to enter the war and support our allies, but congress just didn’t want to make the official declaration of war. But after the attack on Pearl harbor, that declaration came in short order, just as Roosevelt knew it would.

              • Infraggable@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                This is untrue. This is a false conspiracy theory that people keep repeating that has no facts to back it up. This one bugs me because my grandfather was in the merchant Marines and was stationed there when this happened. People parroting that untrue fact drove him bonkers.

                • jarfil@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  This is untrue

                  Which part?

                  Did the people stationed there get warned? Did merchant Marines have access to top brass intelligence reports? Did Roosevelt have a different motivation? Did Pearl Harbor not happen…?

        • Lojcs@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          What was the prior situation with the reservists? Did they backtrack on their no show threats before the war broke or was the war what forced them to show up

      • hydro033@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        It’s not that easy. There is constant information coming in all the time and intelligent agents need to parse signal from noise. It’s not every single bit of intelligence regarding an attack comes into fruition. In fact, it’s quite the opposite. This is an extremely difficult signal detection problem, one with lives at stake.

    • jarfil@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      when you stop to look at the powder keg they created

      Wait until you expand it by a few more years:

    • Something_Complex@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      The bigger problem is that they probably knew. They where informed by Egypt intelligence…

      If that is true, then they might have let it happen as an excuse to take Gaza in retribution

        • lennybird@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          US Congressional members with security clearances corroborated this, did they not?

          • Gerbler@lemmy.ml
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            1 year ago

            They didn’t corroborate that Israel let this happen as justification to level Gaza. That’s the conspiracy theory the user above is urging not to spread.

            • lennybird@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              Fair point. Though to me it’s of little relevance; for either they were grossly incompetent or they let it happen intentionally.

              Given the historical evidence behind the Shock Doctrine, I’m convinced that is what’s playing out here.

      • tym@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        So, Israel’s 9/11 then? It wasn’t a coincidence that NORAD was on training exercises that day.

  • danl@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    Check your axes. You have 2x 25,000s. I genuinely want to know how on someone can create a chart with this kind of error these days. Surely you’re not adding axis labels with a graphics tool after the initial generation. Right?

  • Proteus@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    I was curious about looking at some recent data being visualized. specifically a percentage of population estimate for the varied areas. (injuries , deaths, missing) anyone know of some credible data sets for some of this info? if I wasn’t at the bar, I’d try to tease it out myself.

  • capital@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    C O N T E X T

    O

    N

    T

    E

    X

    T

    Edit: if any of the downvoters would take a moment to reply letting me know what they think I meant by this comment that would be much appreciated. Frankly, I’m a bit lost.

    • redimk@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      1 year ago

      I think that the downvotes come from a place of not understanding what this comment tries to imply, hence not adding anything to the conversation.

      For example. Someone can read this and think “Context matters, so that’s why Hamas did what they did, and what they did is fine and I stand with them”

      Another person could read “Context matters, it doesn’t matter what Isarael did before, Hamas still did something unforgivable and Israel is still right and I stand with them”

      Ultimately, at least for me, it’s hard to see what you’re trying to say with this comment, especially when the situation is so nuanced. At least that’s how I saw it.

    • WhiteHawk@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Edit: if any of the downvoters would take a moment to reply letting me know what they think I meant by this comment that would be much appreciated. Frankly, I’m a bit lost.

      Probably since you stressed the importance of context and refused to give any context

      • capital@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        I meant it in the exact way OP did. Which is that these recent deaths aren’t a whole lot in context.

    • BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      It also has to be noted that a huge element behind low Israeli casualties is the Iron Dome.

      If you plotted a chart of attempted civilian deaths, you’d get a very very different picture. Personally, I’m not meaningfully less upset at someone who tries to murder me just because they don’t succeed.

      • Not_mikey@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Iron dome didn’t come online until 2011 so you can see pre-iron dome on the chart, 2008-2011 and it’s not much different. If you do go out even further like another person posted you’ll see that comparatively high Palestinian deaths characterize this conflict. Before Hamas, before the iron dome Palestiniana have been the overwhelming victims of this conflict.

        • aesthelete@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          It’s a group of people with leftover/smuggled weapons from other anti-Israel interests vs easily the most organized military in the region.

    • Bigmouse@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Hamas is Jihadist and extremist. It would have been a fatal mistake for Israel to support them to undermine the secular movement for a free palestine. Trying to position Hamas between international support and the palestinian people sounds like a really cynical and bad idea.

      There is no way the hard right in Israel would ever pursue such an agenda.right?

      • emax_gomax@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        What do you think the hostages they took were for? Aside from later rape after they were tired from all the initial raping and pillaging.

          • emax_gomax@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            You’re just being overdramatic. My comment never mentions Palestine or Palestinians explicitly and to be clear I was referring to hamas, the terrorists, that hide behind Palestinian civilians.

        • tocopherol@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          1 year ago

          Palestinian militants take IDF soldiers captive so they can exchange them for their own that are being held captive in Israel.

  • eramseth@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    15 years is a woefully short time frame to look at in a conflict that goes back hundreds if not thousands of years…

  • Praise Idleness@sh.itjust.works
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    1 year ago

    Israel: Uses Iron dome to protect civilians, counter attacks when attacked

    Palestine: We have more victims 😢

    This kind of visualization is not aiming to be informative. It’s trying to be a propaganda and I genuinely hate that.

    • Wogi@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      “the facts don’t align with the narrative I’ve selected! Clearly this must be propaganda”

    • WaxedWookie@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Would you mind parsing that out a little further? Surely you’re not saying that it’s fine that the IDF is killing almost 500x the number of civilians Hamas are because they have the iron dome, and pointing out this fact is propagandistic?

      • Reyali@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        100% not agreeing with this person, but I think their point is that if Hamas attacks, their attacks are likely to be blocked by the iron dome, resulting in no Israeli casualties. But if Israel retaliates, Palestine will have casualties.

        I think the thought process is to defend Israel by implying all the deaths they’ve caused is as a counterattack?

        Again, not defending it, just interpreting what I think was being implied. Even if my interpretation is correct, so much is still missing from the thought process.

        • WaxedWookie@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          This amounts to “You tried to punch me a couple of times and landed one, so I beat the shit out of you with 500 punches - it’s racist propaganda to point out that I did that.”

          There’s a reason I asked them to expand on what they said - I’m confident they’re trying to defend the indefensible, and I’ll just let them reveal that themselves.

    • deft@ttrpg.network
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      1 year ago

      A little more nuanced than that.

      Where did Israel come from? Who lived there first? Why was Israel set there and who deemed it all legal?

      Imperialism.

      People native to the area are shoved aside, money is sent to force those people being shoved aside and nobody is supposed to care they are shoved aside.

      I agree chart pushes a narrative but the narrative is not “Palestinians are crybabies about missile strikes”

      • ParsnipWitch@feddit.de
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        1 year ago

        Jews are natives to that area as well. It wasn’t just the people who today call themselves Palestines.

        • deft@ttrpg.network
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          1 year ago

          Okay. But also so are Palestinians and that was their land until the British changed it (Imperialism)

          Now who lives in open air prisons because of the other? Because it ain’t Jewish people.

    • Not_mikey@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Yes, cause pre-iron dome, which is on this chart 2008-2011, the death toll was much completely even.

    • nothingcorporate@lemmy.todayOP
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      1 year ago

      Before we just dig in and point fingers, maybe we can get on the same page? Nobody is saying murdering babies is ok, as others pointed out, that has not been substantiated. Assuming we’re all against murdering innocent people, the point of the chart/linked article, is to understand the circumstances that make a powder keg for violence.

      Think of it this way: pointing out that having a table full of wood shavings and gasoline out in the sun is likely to cause a fire is NOT pro-fire or justifying fire; it’s pointing out the conditions that foster the growth of fire because you want less fire to exist in the world.

    • SheeEttin@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Considering that I haven’t seen any substantiation for those claims, it’s properly charted already at 0.

      • PenguinJuice@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        Phew. I’m so glad to hear Hamas draws the line at murdering, raping, kidnapping and using human shields. I was really worried they were the bad guys.

        • RepulsiveDog4415@feddit.de
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          1 year ago

          Did we look at the same graph? Can you truly say these attacks caused more suffering? Who murdered more innocent children (considering the demographics of Gaza and the indiscriminate nature of Israels bombings in the past)?

          I don’t think anyone is innocent here, but if i had to blame someone, it’d be the oppressor, not the opressed.

        • Why9@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          You legit looked at this graph, ignored ALL of it, and still went “Hamas bad”.

          Why are you here if you’re not going to even try to understand the situation?

          • Bigmouse@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Hamas IS bad. They repress secular movements for a free palestine. We shouldn’t forget tho, that is the role Israel intends for them.

    • RepulsiveDog4415@feddit.de
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      1 year ago

      I always think to myself “No one could possibly believe such blatant propaganda” and then i read comments like these. Why behead them? Why don’t you behead the adults? Do you carry a dedicated baby knife for that?

      It’s not like they’d be innocent without beheading babies… But i guess dehumanizing them like this makes it easier to justify the atrocities that are sure to be commited as a reaction to this.

      It kinda makes me wonder how much of the things i assume to be true are the product of propaganda aswell.

      • mrpants@midwest.social
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        1 year ago

        They intentionally slaughtered a massive amount of civilians in a blatant act of terrorism. The people that did this don’t believe Jews to be worthy of living. True or not anyone who can believe and do these things isn’t too far off from being capable of beheading babies.

        • RepulsiveDog4415@feddit.de
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          They intentionally slaughtered a massive amount of civilians in a blatant act of terrorism.

          Yes they did. So did the israely military in Gaza.

          The people that did this don’t believe Jews to be worthy of living.

          I wonder why. Not saying i agree but i understand their anger and frustration. What growing up in an open air prison does to a mf…

          True or not anyone who can believe and do these things isn’t too far off from being capable of beheading babies.

          What ever helps you justify the indiscriminate violence Israel will be unleashing on the palistinian population. Realisticly there is no way to distinguish between Hamas fighters and civilians. But i guess those are 2nd class civilians anyway, or are Hamas themselves, right?

    • Why9@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      It’s not on the chart. Not only did it not happen prior to the current October 2023 war (as it clearly states in the title of the graph and the post), it didn’t happen at all.

      What did happen is the overwhelming murder and maiming of innocent civilians who have no way to defend themselves, against one of the most powerful nations on the planet.

    • enkers@sh.itjust.works
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      1 year ago

      You mean the made up babies that everyone who claimed they existed are now backpedaling on?

    • Seytoux@lemmy.one
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      1 year ago

      It’s not that hard to read fam.

      The title of the chart clearly states prior to the Oct 2022 war. So …

    • Not_mikey@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      And here we see one of the rights favorite tactics. Focus on the most lurid horrifying story, usually involving a white woman or child, to demonize and marginalize a group of people while completely ignoring the statistics of whose actually being victimized. You saw it in the Jim crow south with stories of negros raping white women, you saw it in nazi Germany with stories of Jews sacrificing German babies, and now you see it in the defense of Israel.